DBounce Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Let me ask you this... why do you want higher DR? For me it comes down to being able to get detail in my subject without blowing out my background. From what I have seen Z Cam might be accomplishing exactly this. And I believe their DR claims... at least from the footage I have seen, might be accurate. The desert video reminds me of what I have seen in iPhones photos with HDR enabled. The AI features are great... and I appreciate the effort. But nailing down AF will get them more mileage imo. IronFilm and sanveer 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 You are believing this footage is 16 stops of DR that looks like HDR? This is there download sample of WDR on their Web Site. But it is only in 1080p and it was shot in 4K so probably not the best demo on their part. Not counting how many people have equipment to even view it other than on a late model iPhone. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n0DD0KEmPdMkM0dAdzxaQbhEFdHcOSp6/view?us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 2 hours ago, webrunner5 said: Yeah but I don't think you can compare HDR DR to, ehh what will I call it, regular DR. Any camera with 10bit and a Log profile can do HDR. Panny GH5 is a prime example. Wiki:" When HDR content is displayed on a 2,000 cd/m2 display with a bit depth of 10-bits per sample it has a dynamic range of 200,000:1 or 17.6 stops". Eh that is a pretty damn bight TV! So claiming 16 stops of DR is sort of misleading if true. The GH5 doesn't have multiple exposure hdr like phones do though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 17 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said: The GH5 doesn't have multiple exposure hdr like phones do though. Are you talking Photos or Video? And yeah I will admit phones have WAY more horsepower than cameras do it seems to do all kinds of things. Seems pretty crazy a cheaper item is better to be honest. Look at the tech involved in the new DJI Osmo Pocket. Makes cameras look pretty dated. I must admit I don't know much about HDR. I have nothing that can shoot it, and can Only view it on my iPhone X. I never was a fan of HDR Photos even though they have been out a long time. Now HDR video that is a different story. Looks nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 48 minutes ago, webrunner5 said: You are believing this footage is 16 stops of DR that looks like HDR? This is there download sample of WDR on their Web Site. But it is only in 1080p and it was shot in 4K so probably not the best demo on their part. Not counting how many people have equipment to even view it other than on a late model iPhone. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n0DD0KEmPdMkM0dAdzxaQbhEFdHcOSp6/view?us I'm referring to this video, shot by someone who actually purchased the camera... not someone that works for Z Cam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 42 minutes ago, DBounce said: I'm referring to this video, shot by someone who actually purchased the camera... not someone that works for Z Cam. And I said above I like the look of it. But that is not what comes right out of the camera. It is a grade, and I would suspect a grade this guy could get from a lot of cameras. He has talent. That is the secret sauce, not the camera. He could make a iPhone look good. Sure it takes a camera with a decent amount of DR. How much is in that shot, hell I don't know. It is shot in 4K. Can the new Osmo Pocket look that good in his hands. I bet it could, or be so close we aren't going to be able to tell. We are Way past what a camera is now, it is the operators skill. Are certain cameras easier to get a good look, sure, but most are more than capable in the right hands. We are at a point where we suck a hell of a lot more than the cameras. We are the ones that need to get better, not the cameras. Buying a new one is hardly the answer. We can afford to buy old Cine cameras that people made stuff that knocked your socks off 5, 6 years ago or more. A person surely ought to be able to still do it if you have talent with one. But sure for the money the Z-Cam E2 looks like a hell of a good camera. So does the PK4, so does the X-T3, etc. etc. No excuses cameras out now. Time we bone up and get better at using them. That is the answer. Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Yeah, supports what you've just said the fact he starts his video with 4K 60p footage shot on the most recent Go Pro version, so... ; -) webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 38 minutes ago, webrunner5 said: And I said above I like the look of it. But that is not what comes right out of the camera. It is a grade, and I would suspect a grade this guy could get from a lot of cameras. He has talent. That is the secret sauce, not the camera. He could make a iPhone look good. Sure it takes a camera with a decent amount of DR. How much is in that shot, hell I don't know. It is shot in 4K. Can the new Osmo Pocket look that good in his hands. I bet it could, or be so close we aren't going to be able to tell. We are Way past what a camera is now, it is the operators skill. Are certain cameras easier to get a good look, sure, but most are more than capable in the right hands. We are at a point where we suck a hell of a lot more than the cameras. We are the ones that need to get better, not the cameras. Buying a new one is hardly the answer. We can afford to buy old Cine cameras that people made stuff that knocked your socks off 5, 6 years ago or more. A person surely ought to be able to still do it if you have talent with one. But sure for the money the Z-Cam E2 looks like a hell of a good camera. So does the PK4, so does the X-T3, etc. etc. No excuses cameras out now. Time we bone up and get better at using them. That is the answer. I don't think it's just a grade. If the detail is not there the grade will not have any information to recover. In the video he is demonstrating the WDR of the Z-Cam. If it was nothing exceptional, I'm pretty certain he would mention that it was no better than say his GH5. I have perused a few of his videos, and I see no "secret sauce" regarding highlight/shadow recovery. It's one thing to have shadow detail with blue skies It's another thing to have shadow detail in cloudy conditions where you want to get the richness of the blues, with the grays and bright whites that are not blown-out... all while maintaining detail in your subject. Try this with the GH5 or X-T3 or P4K for that matter and you will likely see blown whites in the clouds. Without the DR, something must be scarified. Assuming he is not using a graduated filter. While I would be the first to agree that all of these cameras can produce great output in the right hands, I think you might be oversimplifying the matter... which is, the Z-Cam seems to have the advertised DR. I see you have posted a link to some HDR footage... have you had a play with it? I have a fair idea of what is possible with all the cameras I have owned. I'm quite certain the Z-Cam's footage is more flexible than most... if not all the cameras at this price point and below. Reliability, and needing to send the camera to China for repairs is the most concerning issue imo. 4 minutes ago, Emanuel said: Yeah, supports what you've just said the fact he starts his video with 4K 60p footage shot on the most recent Go Pro version, so... ; -) Except, there is no one in the foreground and no cloudy skies to contend with. tweak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 4 minutes ago, DBounce said: Except, there is no one in the foreground and no cloudy skies to contend with. Sure. Horses for courses... ; -) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 Z cam has released footage of their Zlog2 15 stops https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Nhqn6w4uPJkn-PKURN6cg_6uWRRe6CLO/view?fbclid=IwAR1zGHQyrKsMp633AAy3kzgvPibepE_KWaFBGC0AI1IaYBo8DBFBhRTGs9U Google drive link if someone wants to play with it. I'd like to see a video of a person against the sun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 On 12/9/2018 at 11:21 AM, webrunner5 said: 300 bucks of the PK4 is Resolve Studio. Camera really cost 999 bucks. Probably be 800 bucks used in not long. So twice as much the way I look at it If we start going down that path of logic then we could say crazy things like "and in maybe not so long ish the Z Cam E2 will be on sale for $400" which makes the BMPCC4K "twice as much the way I look at it" tweak 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 28 minutes ago, IronFilm said: If we start going down that path of logic then we could say crazy things like "and in maybe not so long ish the Z Cam E2 will be on sale for $400" which makes the BMPCC4K "twice as much the way I look at it" It will be that much. You are seer. The PK4, X-T3 will kill it off and the price will drop just like the Z-E1 has. Now on the PK4 once you use the Studio Dongle, SD card actually now, you can't re sell it, it is registered in your name. So that makes the PK4 999 bucks. Now if it is used you think I am going to pay you full price. Nope, I will give you 800 bucks IF you are lucky. A lot of people that buy it will sell them just like people did with the original BMPCC. You will be lucky to get 750 bucks for one 2 years from now. Might be cheap enough I might actually buy one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Sure you get resolve with it but I don't know if people buying it or selling it will actually remove $300 from the price. $1000 used is a more realistic estimate in the short term. Just depends if something comes out that can really compete with it. Some cameras hold value for years. No camera is a good investment if you plan to jump onto the new hot item everytime though. IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 11 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said: Some cameras hold value for years. Just look at my BMPCC which only years later has finally fallen consistently below the US$500 I paid for it brand new. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, IronFilm said: Just look at my BMPCC which only years later has finally fallen consistently below the US$500 I paid for it brand new. They sold for about $1000 originally right? Usually when the next gen camera comes out the prices drops. I just don't see a Black Magic Pocket 6K or 8k coming out any time soon. I think the BMP4K will be a staple for a bit. I don't see Panasonic or any of the hybrid companies dropping a camera that shoots RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Most people do not even have theirs P4K yet, and you are selling it for 500-1000$ already?! Get a grip guys! At the moment there are cameras offered at higher than retail price on ebay. This camera is a huge success already, and it well a lot more before the end of its cycle. KnightsFan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 49 minutes ago, thebrothersthre3 said: They sold for about $1000 originally right? Usually when the next gen camera comes out the prices drops. I just don't see a Black Magic Pocket 6K or 8k coming out any time soon. I think the BMP4K will be a staple for a bit. I don't see Panasonic or any of the hybrid companies dropping a camera that shoots RAW. Mark my words... the flood gates are about to open. I would not be surprised to see many more products coming to market to challenge them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, thebrothersthre3 said: They sold for about $1000 originally right? Yup, the original BMPCC was $1K at launch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kisaha Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 From the BM forum. "I had one for about 2 weeks, I sold it on ebay for $2,050 and bought another one which will be delivered today." That is almost 1.5 times of the original price. IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrothersthre3 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Kisaha said: From the BM forum. "I had one for about 2 weeks, I sold it on ebay for $2,050 and bought another one which will be delivered today." That is almost 1.5 times of the original price. Right now they have limited stock so people will pay more so they don't have to wait. 13 hours ago, DBounce said: Mark my words... the flood gates are about to open. I would not be surprised to see many more products coming to market to challenge them. Who do you think will put out a RAW camera? Sony and Canon can't even do 10 bit internal yet. Pana is moving to full frame, so I doubt the GH series will see RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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