How Many Stops of Dynamic Range Needed for Cinematic Look?

[mercer]

1 minute ago, mkabi said:

@mercer given that you just made a good comparison on the cinematic look (with GX85 vs 5D3; 1DXii vs GH5/GH5S)...

How do you feel about the images coming out of the A73 & X-H1 (the good ones, cause there are a whole lot of bad ones too)?

Haha, honestly I am probably the last person to ask, but in reality I haven’t really watched that many videos from either. With that being said, I love the footage I’ve seen from the X-T2 so with the new Eterna profile and IBIS (even with its supposed issues... although I have read so many contradictory accounts that span from the best IBIS to a piece of crap) the X-H1 should be a great camera. I follow some Fuji shooters on IG, and their images have a glint of that modern “film” look we were discussing, so I could see Fuji being a main contender. 

I’ve always had a soft spot for Sony and their weird colors. So I love some original a7s footage and the a5100/a6000 footage and even the RX10/ii footage as well. But me and Sony just doesn’t mix. I have like 2 tricks up my sleeve and neither works with Sony footage.

With that being said, the A7iii looks awesome and the price is amazing. So if I had to choose between the two I would go with the Sony... because I like to think I’ll figure out sLog one of these days but to date I can only get acceptable B&W with it...

[mercer]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

lol... I think an idiot user that Fs-up a cell phone video, can also F-up video coming out of an Arri  

Ha, I don’t know, it may be easier to eff up a cell phone video. 

This is my theory and I expect a downvote or two for saying this but it isn’t directed at anyone specifically...

On forums like this, a lot of people like to believe that skill and talent will push them and that they have it, so it becomes an ego thing.

But if that were entirely true, then why would Alexas even exist? If talent was all it took, then just go out and buy a t2i and make some Hollywood level films. A hacked GH2 would be more than enough, you would think. 

Talent and skill is the unsaid-said... obviously talent and skill helps. But for amateurs, camera choice can make your life a lot easier... it does for me anyway.

[mkabi]

@mercer Alright then... I feel like that answer has left me with more questions... so allow me to ask a similar question but in a different way.

And, to be honest, anyone reading this can answer these questions.

There is no right or wrong answer here.

 Can you rate each camera out of 10 - 5D3, GX85, GH5, GH5S, 1DXii, X-H1 & A73 on:

Video-ish vs Cinematic Look: 1 - being most video-ish and 10 - being most cinematic

I'm sure a lot of them of them will reach 7 and above so the next part is to rate them on a scale of 1 to 10 on

Vintage-film look vs. Modern film look. 1 - being most vintage (although, I don't think anyone of them will be anywhere close to this side) and 10 - being most modern film look.

And, obviously, you can manipulate the image before, during and after to make it the way you want it. So, ultimately, it wouldn't really matter.... but for arguments sake... SOOC of camera how would you rate the above mentioned cameras.

27 minutes ago, mercer said:

Ha, I don’t know, it may be easier to eff up a cell phone video. 

This is my theory and I expect a downvote or two for saying this but it isn’t directed at anyone specifically...

On forums like this, a lot of people like to believe that skill and talent will push them and that they have it, so it becomes an ego thing.

But if that were entirely true, then why would Alexas even exist? If talent was all it took, then just go out and buy a t2i and make some Hollywood level films. A hacked GH2 would be more than enough, you would think. 

Talent and skill is the unsaid-said... obviously talent and skill helps. But for amateurs, camera choice can make your life a lot easier... it does for me anyway.

I don't disagree with you... you can only go so far with the affordable equipment... thereafter you just have to move on...

But, you don't learn to run before you crawl... If I give you an Arri body right now and say start recording in the next second... you're going to be like "Give me a few minutes."

If I did the same with a cell phone, you'd be okay.... swipe-swipe ready!

Check this out:

Now lens, lighting, and all the other components matter too.

The real question you should ask if the best image out of t2i/Gh2 is better or worse than the worst image out of an Arri? Cause obviously the best image out of an Arri is better than both worst and best image out of the t2i/GH2. 

Editted to add: may be not the worst image out of an Arri.... Cause you can really really muck it up if you are really determined to f-ing it up...may be just SOOC?

It would be funny if the worst image out of an Arri is even better in the "Worse" category compared to the t2i/GH2.... they can't even beat an Arri in the worse category  

[mercer]

Well, @mkabi I think this is a tough question because it so subjective, not just to taste, but also to what someone is capable of doing with said camera.

Or if we haven’t used said camera, do we base our scoring on the best video we saw by the best operator or by the worst video we saw by the worst operator?

Look at the 1DC vs 1DXii. Both are very capable cameras with similar specs. But the 1DC has a little bit more mojo (shit I brought the word mojo into the discussion.... we need another thread to prove that doesn’t exist) but the 1DC has CLog... so is that the missing factor?

32 minutes ago, mkabi said:

an you rate each camera out of 10 - 5D3, GX85, GH5, GH5S, 1DXii, X-H1 & A73 on:

Okay if I am forced to annoy a bunch of people with one person’s opinion... here it goes...

5D3 (ML Raw) - 8

GX85 - 4

GH5 - 5.5

GH5s - 6.5

1DXii - 7

X-H1 - 6.5

A7iii - 6.5

Coincedentally, the camera I own gets the highest score... LOL.

But part of that scoring system is based on what I think I could do with the camera or based on an opinion from an amalgamation of videos I’ve seen shot with that camera.

[kidzrevil]

18 minutes ago, mercer said:

I’d agree with this statement... I mean how could I not. But I know for a fact that I can shoot the same exact shot with a GX85 and with my 5D3 Raw and the 5D3 footage will look more cinematic. 

Hopefully you take this as a compliment because it is meant in no other way, but I think your 1Dxii footage looks more cinematic than your more recent Panasonic stuff. Now I assume you haven’t become less skilled over the past year, so there has to be a camera element involved?

To clarify, I do not think your Panasonic footage looks bad, it looks cool, but I do see a difference between the two. 

Yup. I rotate between my a6500 and 5d3 raw for that same reason. Each has its own look that are both cinematic in its own right 

2 hours ago, mkabi said:

lol... I think an idiot user that Fs-up a cell phone video, can also F-up video coming out of an Arri  

Facts

[mkabi]

10 minutes ago, mercer said:

Well, @mkabi I think this is a tough question because it so subjective, not just to taste, but also to what someone is capable of doing with said camera.

Or if we haven’t used said camera, do we base our scoring on the best video we saw by the best operator or by the worst video we saw by the worst operator?

Look at the 1DC vs 1DXii. Both are very capable cameras with similar specs. But the 1DC has a little bit more mojo (shit I brought the word mojo into the discussion.... we need another thread to prove that doesn’t exist) but the 1DC has CLog... so is that the missing factor?

Okay if I am forced to annoy a bunch of people with one person’s opinion... here it goes...

5D3 (ML Raw) - 8

GX85 - 4

GH5 - 5.5

GH5s - 6.5

1DXii - 7

X-H1 - 6.5

A7iii - 6.5

Coincedentally, the camera I own gets the highest score... LOL.

Sorry.... I had 2 rating systems. Which one is the above? And, can you do the other one too?

Lastly, add a t2i in the mix.

Anyone can participate in this....

My rating 1 (video vs cinematic):

-GX85 - 4

-t2i - 6

-GH5 - 5.5

-GH5S - 7

-X-H1 - 7

-A7iii - 6.5

-1DXii - 8

-5D3 ML Raw - 9

Rating 2 (vintage vs modern using 6.5 and above)

-A73 - 7

-GH5S - 5

-XH1 - 6

-1DXii - 5

-5D3 - 4

Again, there is no right or wrong answer here. And, its your personal opinion... sure you can totally piss on the other camera because you hate that brand for whatever.... but at the end of the day, if you send your stuff to youtube, film festival, whatever... people are going to either praise it for content or image quality and not care about which camera they used it on.... so.... who cares right?

[mercer]

Damn it I wanted to give the 5D3 a 9-9.5 but thought I’d look like a dick because that’s what I shoot with.

But yes nobody should care about my opinion. The best camera is the one you own. End of story.

But okay... vintage vs. modern with 1 being closer to vintage look and 10 being closer to modern look...

5D3 (ML Raw) - 5

GX85 - umm 6ish

GH5 - 7

GH5s - 8

1DXii - 5

t2i - 3

GH2 - 4

X-H1 - 7

A7iii - 7

[DBounce]

37 minutes ago, mercer said:

Damn it I wanted to give the 5D3 a 9-9.5 but thought I’d look like a dick because that’s what I shoot with.

But yes nobody should care about my opinion. The best camera is the one you own. End of story.

But okay... vintage vs. modern with 1 being closer to vintage look and 10 being closer to modern look...

5D3 (ML Raw) - 5

GX85 - umm 6ish

GH5 - 7

GH5s - 8

1DXii - 5

t2i - 3

GH2 - 4

X-H1 - 7

A7iii - 7

I think the GH5S can be made to look pretty vintage...

 

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, DBounce said:

I think the GH5S can be made to look pretty vintage...

 

Oh I agree. I am liking some stuff I am seeing from the GH5s. I think I was looking at @mkabi challenge as which way is each camera easier to go... so I guess in a lot of ways, it is best to be closer to 5... but I also think if a camera can come close to a modern film look, it usually can achieve a vintage film look.

[DBounce]

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

Oh I agree. I am liking some stuff I am seeing from the GH5s. I think I was looking at @mkabi challenge as which way is each camera easier to go... so I guess in a lot of ways, it is best to be closer to 5... but I also think if a camera can come close to a modern film look, it usually can achieve a vintage film look.

There are so many great options available that we are really only limited by our creativity. The thing I notice is some cameras can be twisted harder to different looks before the image falls apart.

Of course lenses, filters and lights go a long way to help sell the look.

[BTM_Pix]

I largely think we've managed to get things arse backwards when it comes to emulating a film look.

Because everyone now has the ability to change everything about an image in post there is barely any emphasis on getting it right - or at least consistent - in camera first.

If a camera manufacturer said :

"OK, we are putting all our eggs in one basket here but we have absolutely perfected an in camera look that is identical to Kodak Vision 250D (for example). Our entire sensor and processing design is based on purely just replicating that but we guarantee that if you shoot with this it will be indivisible from if you'd used that stock. Oh and you'll only be able to use it to shoot up to ISO800 though".

Would you buy it?

I think I would.

Personally speaking, taking away all those variables that offer endless rabbit holes to explore but often just disappear down and making something work within a constant framework would be challenging but ultimately more creative and productive. 

This is a really interesting piece about preparation in camera to match film and the follow up piece is here :

http://yedlin.net/OnColorScience/

 

Its quite timely that this has come up because I've been interested in tweaking combinations of base colour profiles and constrast/saturation/sharpness etc parameters in Panasonic cameras for a while with a view to mining some in camera combinations that may not be obvious ones but actually work well visually.

The timely part is I've just finished an app today that does automated stepping through all combinations (from selectable ranges) whilst either capturing a still per combo or as one continuous video with the changes embedded.

I'll give it its own thread tomorrow if anyone is interested.

 

[kidzrevil]

I use 14 bits to be safe but there shouldn’t be any visible discernible difference between 12 & 14 bit

I use davinci resolve color management for accurate conversion to rec709 from the huge color space.

[mnewxcv]

20 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

I use 14 bits to be safe but there shouldn’t be any visible discernible difference between 12 & 14 bit

I use davinci resolve color management for accurate conversion to rec709 from the huge color space.

how do you convert to rec709?

[kidzrevil]

@mnewxcv I only go straight to rec709 if I am using Aces. For everything else I convert the raw data to bmdfilm because it can preserve the entire 14 bit data in its LOG curve

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, mkabi said:

The best possible result is if you try to emulate a scene from your favorite movie with the consumer camcorder, that way you have a direct comparison.

 

There is still a TONNE of big and small differences that you'll do different from how they actually filmed it. 

Be it the lighting. Camera movement. Acting. Editing. Sound. Etc

10 hours ago, mercer said:

So you don’t believe there is a camera element involved and it’s all based on the users skill level?

Yes, when it comes to reaching the threshold of crossing into of what "cinematic looking" is. 

It depends then on the person's skill (and the production's budgeting / time scheduling, as even the most skilled person can't pull it off if they've given impossible conditions).

9 hours ago, Grimor said:

Simple slider/crane shoots and people around you will say "woah!!, looks like a film!!"

Agreed. Or drone footage! 

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, DBounce said:

I'm going to go out on a limb  and suggest  the reason  footage from professional level cameras looks more cinematic than most footage from amateur cameras is more to do with the professionals behind the "professional" cameras.

There's a reason lights comes before camera. Capturing what the eye sees  is not what cinematography is about. It's about creating art.

This. I'd much rather first become an expert gaffer before becoming a DoP, than becoming an expert AC before moving onto becoming a DoP. 
Would be excellent if more people chose to follow that path instead of going up the grind of the camera department. 

7 hours ago, DBounce said:

I think the GH5S can be made to look pretty vintage...

The Tiffen Black Pro Mist might have been the key. 

[webrunner5]

10 hours ago, mercer said:

With that being said, the A7iii looks awesome and the price is amazing. So if I had to choose between the two I would go with the Sony... because I like to think I’ll figure out sLog one of these days but to date I can only get acceptable B&W with it...

Speaking of B&W, I know people will have a heart attack, sorry, I think the Fuji X-T2 and the new X-H1 ought to be a damn good camera to get a good film look in B&W Video. Now that is one area I will agree that, other than Leica, they are sort of king in that, Fuji has always in their cameras had B&W figured out, even their real B&W film was great.

[kye]

8 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

@mnewxcv I only go straight to rec709 if I am using Aces. For everything else I convert the raw data to bmdfilm because it can preserve the entire 14 bit data in its LOG curve

If you haven't already come across them, I can highly recommend the videos by Juan Melara (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqi6295cdFJI9VUPzIN4NXQ/videos).  He is obviously a very knowledgeable operator, but also seems to use Resolve in a way I haven't seen any other YouTubers even approach.  I learned a heap from him.

I haven't completely worked out my workflow for ML RAW, but he got me pretty close I think.

[DBounce]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The Tiffen Black Pro Mist might have been the key. 

The BPM sees lots of use in films so it makes sense to add it when emulating that look. I feel the anamorphic adapter also played a hand. Also golden hour sunlight.

[BTM_Pix]

13 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

 

I'll give it its own thread tomorrow if anyone is interested.