Final Cut ProRes RAW

[KnightsFan]

@sanveer That was my impression, too, which makes me really curious to know what's going on under the hood though, and how it's different from cDNG.

[sanveer]

@KnightsFan

I have a strange theory. Right now I am too zonked. I.probably. shohld sleep. Gn

[cantsin]

On the German-language Slashcam forum, the following issues of ProRes Raw and its current workflows have been discussed:

• There are no WB and ISO controls in post (FCPX), which is weird for Raw.
• In the case of some cameras, like the Panasonic EVA, ISO and even (to a lesser degree) WB is baked into its Raw footage, no matter whether you record CinemaDNG or ProRes RAW.
• The playback performance of ProRes RAW in FCPX is excellent - but there are suspicions that this is because of some built-in Proxy workflow since you can't adjust WB and ISO.

[KnightsFan]

@cantsin Lack of white balance controls is really suspicious. Do we know if it's a limitation of ProRes Raw, or whether they just didn't implement that in FCPX? Considering the filesize is similar to other compressed Raw formats, it seems unlikely that the file contains the vastly smaller amounts of data that would preclude having a white balance adjustment. I mean, without white balance adjustment how can it even be called Raw?

I'm would actually be glad there is no "ISO" control. You can still adjust exposure with curves and other tools, and calling it ISO confuses it with analog gain. Perhaps "ISO" is the more correct term, but we've been so relaxed about distinguishing between gain and ISO in digital cameras that it's confusing. I've had too many conversations about why the BMCC ISO's aren't "real", and why you can't set the ISO of a DSLR in post.

Built-in proxies is actually a really good idea! If proxies were done at the file level instead of by the NLE, it could potentially standardize proxy workflows across different NLE's. Though, it would be disappointing to not be able to control how they are generated and used.

[Axel]

4 hours ago, cantsin said:

 

• There are no WB and ISO controls in post (FCPX), which is weird for Raw.
• (...)
• The playback performance of ProRes RAW in FCPX is excellent - but there are suspicions that this is because of some built-in Proxy workflow since you can't adjust WB and ISO.

Take this from a hardcore FCP fanboy: you can blame that on FCP. Or I better put it this way: the fact that you have no WB and no ISO in the CC tools (I couldn't find the metadata for those either, only for codec, manufacturer and camera name) doesn't mean they are generally not stored with the video.

[Aussie Ash]

On 4/13/2018 at 9:01 AM, sanveer said:

Grant basically called it rubbish, with just a diffrent set of words. Considering that Blackmagic lives of ProRes, I am sure Grant tested it enough to know how utterly useless the development may have been. 

Grant Petty talks about Prores raw at 6.4 

 

 

[sanveer]

4 hours ago, Aussie Ash said:

Grant Petty talks about Prores raw at 6.4 

 

 

Thanks 

[Damphousse]

11 hours ago, Aussie Ash said:

Grant Petty talks about Prores raw at 6.4 

Yeah, I simply don't understand the need for this Prores raw thing.  I don't see what it adds compared to compressed Cinema DNG.

On 4/13/2018 at 8:25 AM, KnightsFan said:

@cantsin Lack of white balance controls is really suspicious. Do we know if it's a limitation of ProRes Raw, or whether they just didn't implement that in FCPX? Considering the filesize is similar to other compressed Raw formats, it seems unlikely that the file contains the vastly smaller amounts of data that would preclude having a white balance adjustment. I mean, without white balance adjustment how can it even be called Raw?

Yeah... Just pointless.

[TwoScoops]

Yeah, the lack of white balance control makes me lose a lot of interest for sure. 

[Axel]

8 hours ago, TwoScoops said:

Yeah, the lack of white balance control makes me lose a lot of interest for sure. 

This thread is called Final Cut ProRes Raw. The actual wb value must be saved in the file. How we know? First, Atomos CEO Jeremy Young says so:

Quote

And one of the most important things is the metadata from the camera. We record all of the metadata. We know what the white balance was, we know what the ISO setting was, we know what the shutter speed was. And it means we cando all this realtime decoding and re-encoding to make everything work in the timeline.

Then there is this clip

You don't have to start playback, just watch that stupid lamp in this posterframe. This is probably with the exposure, ISO and WB the filmmaker intended. It's what you'd also get  with ACR or Resolves CR, a serving suggestion based on the metadata of the file. That it looks like this here is an indication that the metadata are there and that they are read by FCP.

BUT:

FCP doesn't display them, nowhere. This weakness is just the tip of the iceberg. If it comes to serious color work, FCP just isn't the right tool. God is in the detail, they say, and I have found too many flaws compared to Resolve. 

This doesn't necessarily mean that PRR isn't interesting. If Resolve adopts it, I could edit RAW in FCP.

 

 

 

 

 

[Don Kotlos]

Here is an illustration with some footage from FS5. It looks great. 

 

[Axel]

10 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

Here is an illustration with some footage from FS5. It looks great. 

...

Another detail. See 18'37": "... it's a weird Final Cut thing".

It indeed is. I call that crap. Can't work with this behavior all day. That's just one example.

But don't get me wrong. I just compared the FCP color tools to Resolve. When it comes to editing, I find as many instances where FCP does it much better.

[Don Kotlos]

8 hours ago, Axel said:

It indeed is. I call that crap. Can't work with this behavior all day. 

Well if you have to adjust exposure by more than 1 stop all day then something is really wrong with the footage 

Joking aside, I don't think anyone disagrees that at least as far as color grading goes Resolve is the best tool. But FCPX with their latest big update went from useless to workable. 

That video just shows the flexibility of RAW and how easy is to edit ProResRAW with a laptop. ProresHQ with about the same bitrate is going to be obsolete very soon. 

[BTM_Pix]

Mmmm...looking at how far it could be pushed and how smooth the workflow was on a 4 year old MacBook (ie the same as mine!)....well...

I've got to say that a used FS5 (as the prices get pushed down even further by he mark ii) and the Ninja V isn't the worst proposition in the world as a very flexible system. In a few months, the total cost of that will probably be hovering around £3.5K.

 

[jonpais]

I’m finding color correction and grading to be a joy with the new tools in Final Cut.

[Axel]

23 hours ago, Axel said:

It indeed is. I call that crap. Can't work with this behavior all day.

 

14 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

Well if you have to adjust exposure by more than 1 stop all day then something is really wrong with the footage 

Well explained by Joseph here: even more than with LOG, you have to ETTR RAW. Usually two stops overexposed*. So yes, I think this constant click-dragging to nowhere is a problem. There needs to be a good Exposure slider. And there is. Guess where: in the taunted Color Board. Tragically underestimated. Also has a better Temperature (= overriding camera WB) slider - hidden in the open because few took the effort to learn this genius "iMovie" tool.

(*BTW: 10.4.1 obviously was to feature noise reduction. Was listed in the version history for a few minutes, and some made screenshots)

12 hours ago, jonpais said:

I’m finding color correction and grading to be a joy with the new tools in Final Cut.

Glad to hear that. Makes me sound like a hater, but I'm not.

[jonpais]

massive game changer?

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/05/07/understanding-prores-raw-is-it-prores-or-is-it-raw/

[jonpais]

 

[BenEricson]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

 

It is insane how bad Sony footage can look. The iPhone renders colors much better.

[webrunner5]

On 5/6/2018 at 11:08 PM, jonpais said:

massive game changer?

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/05/07/understanding-prores-raw-is-it-prores-or-is-it-raw/

I will have to do more research, but I remember in some video Grant Petty, founder of Blackmagic Design sort of poo pooed it as not a big deal for them, and they, BMD, was not that much interested at this time to even incorporate it in their products. But they already have CinemaDNG RAW, sure larger files, but you can have different compressed flavors of it.

Now for company's that don''t have Raw well sure it probably is a big deal. I doubt they are going to turn it down. But I bet it will be a bite your tongue thing, giving Apple even more money for a license for it, and having to wait maybe years to even get it then. If just as a learning tool to grade and color it is a win I think. Why not.