Has Panasonic Killed Off Cinema Lenses?

[jonpais]

The primary reason for using cinema lenses is for pulling focus. Focus pulls have become a hallmark of the cinematic look. However, cinema lenses can run anywhere from around $1,000 to over $30,000 apiece. And that doesn’t include extra expenditures like rails, matte box, follow focus, a heavy duty tripod, an external monitor, batteries, cables and more. Not only are cinema lenses expensive, but you’ll probably need an assistant or two just to get your gear to the location. In addition, it takes quite a bit of time and experience to learn to pull focus properly. This afternoon, I had a chance to play around with Panasonic’s brilliant focus transition feature along with Olympus’ sensational 45mm f/1.2 PRO lens and was fairly blown away by the results. For those not familiar with the feature, it involves setting as many as three focus points and choosing from among several transition speeds. On the slowest setting, you could probably go to Starbucks, finish a coffee and return to the set and the camera will have just finished pulling focus. It is possible to set the camera on auto and execute the focus pull without any human intervention; alternatively, you can tap on the screen to control the timing between transitions manually. Setting up the shot takes just seconds and is repeatable. When using the feature, there is absolutely no pulsing of focus - once the camera has landed on the focus point, it remains locked there. Of course, cinema lenses have advantages other than just having gears - they are designed to have little breathing, and should have fairly consistent color across a set. They also have T stops rather than f stops for consistent exposure and always have declicked aperture rings. So those are things for a budget filmmaker to consider. But I would think that for narrative or product photography, and in other situations where the filmmaker has absolute control over conditions, Panasonic’s focus transition feature would be a welcome timesaver. Many filmmakers are already realizing the benefits of motorized sliders, and I believe that for many applications, the focus transition feature could be just as revolutionary. 

[sanveer]

41 minutes ago, jonpais said:

For those not familiar with the feature, it involves setting as many as three focus points and choosing from among several transition speeds. On the slowest setting, you could probably go to Starbucks, finish a coffee and return to the set and the camera will have just finished pulling focus. It is possible to set the camera on auto and execute the focus pull without any human intervention; alternatively, you can tap on the screen to control the timing between transitions manually. Setting up the shot takes just seconds and is repeatable.

How smooth are the transitions in your opinion? I find all sorts of jumps while focusses on Panasonic cameras in video.

Would you say these are comparable with a smooth manual focus pulling action?

[jonpais]

@sanveer  There are no 'focus jumps' when using the focus transition feature: it goes smoothly from one point to the next and focus does not stray once it reaches the designated point. It is also possible to have much longer transition times than any other system out there.

[BTM_Pix]

You couldn't do me a massive favour at some point could you @jonpais and fire up Panasonic's smartphone app and see if the function can be triggered from there could you?

 

[Inazuma]

What's with this clickbait title? It's a great feature but not all that useful when you have to rack between more than 3 different focus points or don't know where your subject will be next, as in an event or documentary shoot.

[jonpais]

32 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

You couldn't do me a massive favour at some point could you @jonpais and fire up Panasonic's smartphone app and see if the function can be triggered from there could you?

 

Unfortunately (or not), it is not available on the app. I say 'or not' because I've found that my pictures are much sharper when shooting at wide apertures like I do when manually focusing, at least when you must use the camera's own LCD screen. The app can only be used for autofocus. BTW, almost all of the screen grabs I've posted until now have been with the tap to focus feature, which I don't think I'll ever be using again, now that I've seen how much sharper the images are when manually focusing using focus assist and peaking.

22 minutes ago, Inazuma said:

What's with this clickbait title? It's a great feature but not all that useful when you have to rack between more than 3 different focus points or don't know where your subject will be next, as in an event or documentary shoot.

It's not clickbait at all. Sorry you feel that way. I thought I made it quite clear in my post that this is for controlled situations. I don't know,. but I can't see ever doing more than three pulls in one shot, so I consider it very useful. And it's a feature that few people are using, so the purpose of the topic was to bring it to their attention. If the title helps accomplish that, so much the better. If I'd used this feature sooner, I might very well have never purchased a set of cinema lenses and all the gear that goes along with that. Add to that the extra teleconverter function, and you're potentially looking at thousands of dollars in savings.

[BTM_Pix]

8 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Unfortunately (or not), it is not available on the app. I say 'or not' because I've found that my pictures are much sharper when shooting at wide apertures like I do when manually focusing, at least when you must use the camera's own LCD screen. The app can only be used for autofocus. BTW, almost all of the screen grabs I've posted until now have been with the tap to focus feature, which I don't think I'll ever be using again, now that I've seen how much sharper the images are when manually focusing using focus assist and peaking.

Oh well, was looking for a shortcut !

I have an implementation of it that can do it externally (for all Panasonic cameras not just GH5) but it needs some re-thinking to make it smoother.

Cheers anyway

[sanveer]

42 minutes ago, jonpais said:

There are no 'focus jumps' when using the focus transition feature: it goes smoothly from one point to the next and focus does not stray once it reaches the designated point. It is also possible to have much longer transition times than any other system out there.

Thank you for the reply. Will check this out. I already like the pan shot in camera (4k live cropping?). I think it's pretty good. I only wish they had more time options (and perhaps more movement) options in it.

I also love the new photo stacking with multiple images on a single image option that they have on the next GX9 (sequence composition). 

[Mark Romero 2]

The concern for me would be the focus breathing.

Do the lenses breathe much when racking focus???

[jonpais]

Here's a simple focus transition with only two points - one the nearest focus (just to make fuzzy), then my model. Transition speed, Medium.

 

Just now, Mark Romero 2 said:

The concern for me would be the focus breathing.

Do the lenses breathe much when racking focus???

yes, they will breathe. 

[Mark Romero 2]

@jonpais

Thanks for the sample. Which lens are you using in the above clip?

[jonpais]

The Olympus 45mm f/1.2 PRO. It's a beauty.

[tupp]

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

However, cinema lenses can run anywhere from around $1,000 to over $30,000 apiece.

I don't know.  Here is footage from a cinema lens (shot on a Panasonic GH5) that costs only US$750 brand new.  It looks great, but that might be due to the shooter's excellent chops.

 

In regards to programmed focus pulling, it works when the talent can consistently hit their marks, but if the actor lands off the mark, it's nice to have an AC's hand on the focus ring/knob for a quick adjustment.

[Kisaha]

Maybe it is not a very good example because is nothing like real focus pulling. It starts completely out of focus too.

The correct title should have been "Has X brand killed off focus pullers?", and the closest to the X = Canon, with touch dual pixel Focus with the appropriate cine lens (or the hybrid "cheap" CN-E 18-80/70-200).

 

[jonpais]

28 minutes ago, tupp said:

I don't know.  Here is footage from a cinema lens (shot on a Panasonic GH5) that costs only US$750 brand new.  It looks great, but that might be due to the shooter's excellent chops.

 

In regards to programmed focus pulling, it works when the talent can consistently hit their marks, but if the actor lands off the mark, it's nice to have an AC's hand on the focus ring/knob for a quick adjustment.

Those are some mad prices! Only $750 for the 85mm T2.2 is a steal. I'd say not taking advantage of these deals is crazy. Time to delete the topic.  

[Cinegain]

It happens a lot that Amazon stores run solidly and then at some point, either they get hacked or that was the idea to begin with, they turn into con fronts. And when every other shop is listing them for way way more... I'd start to get suspicious...

I think lenses like the Veydras will stay relevant for quite a little longer. As has been said, it's great for static scenes or where people will hit their mark, otherwise... not so much, so I don't see it as a huge threat to conventional lenses and the conventional ways we've been shooting with them for decades.

[BrooklynDan]

True cinema lenses are not dead by any means. I don't know of any ACs that would like to pull focus from a smart phone. At the rental house where I work, we have invested heavily in Preston and Arri wireless gear. You'll pry the Hand Unit 3 from my cold dead hands.

 

That said, there is a need to cut down on the gunk that hangs off of cameras, as you can see in this picture. The latest generation of Panavision's DXL has a Preston receiver built in and the Primo 70 lenses have lens motors for focus and iris directly inside the lens barrel. So I think that there will be more integration in the future. That said, DSLR-level technology is just not gonna fly on a pro set. Your Panasonic lenses are gonna get destroyed easily. Also, I don't think that anybody wants to let go of human focus-pulling. It's a hard job and it gets harder as sensors get bigger. But it remains an organic, vital part of image-making, and I don't think that machines are gonna be able to deliver that.

 

[jonpais]

@BrooklynDan You obviously did not read the post. First of all, the feature does not work with a smartphone. I’m happy you have the budget for Arri wireless follow focus, but my intention was not to say cinema lenses are dead on big productions. This is for those who do not have thousands of dollars for lenses, rails, matte boxes and heavy duty tripods; who don’t have the luxury of several assistants and skilled focus pullers. I wrote this for people who own Panasonic, so please don’t feel threatened. I’m sure you will never see a GH5 on a serious production, because, as you say, it will get destroyed along with the toy lenses. Enjoy your day.

[markr041]

The Z Camera E1, that cheap m43 camera, does preselected focus pulls (not the same as touch focus) using its wifi app:

I think this is the same concept. In this case you can only do this with the app, but for set shots that is fine.

I wish I had the better subjects...

[Jon Jacobs]

Sigh. Another clickbait thread started by a bored expat retiree with clearly nothing to do but worry about things pros long ago consigned to the "crap amateurs obsess about in order to have an excuse to not actually, you know, do work" file.

Sorry folks but is this really what this site has become? A bored retiree starts clickbait threads and the rest of you auto-respond? 

Andrew, time to let the domain reg expire and do something with your life. You're still a young man, you have time to become something more vital than this.