Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[webrunner5]

1 minute ago, Kisaha said:

Suddenly noone can shoot without IBIS, RAW and dozens of thousands of ISO!

Well I have to admit this camera is not going to be a walk in the park on auto LoL. And that is what is going to sperate it from the vast majority of people that would ever buy it or need it.

But man this thing is so powerful on paper, I just don't see yet how they could do it for what it cost. Yeah I keep seeing bits here and there than it can AF maybe half well. I vcan't say I would not like it not to LoL. But I can see me using mostly MF older lenses on it. These new SLR Lenses look nice. But I could only afford maybe a couple. And I am not sure I would gain much over some damn good old Nikon's, etc. As I have stated there are plenty of cheap Gimbals now if you need IBIS, which I can see needing don't get me wrong. And to the ISO man 25,600 is up there for me .If I need more I will just use my A7s!

[Anaconda_]

7 minutes ago, Mokara said:

What would this camera be used for? If you are shooting on a set piece there are better options, and if you need mobility there are better options. I think the market for something like this is very limited, likely mostly people at the margins of the profession with extremely thin budgets. Students and those sorts of people. 

I think it's going to be ideal for music videos and documentary filmmaking (my line of work). They're often controlled environments where mobility plays a huge factor, you're often not looking for a super fast turn around, and quality is key. Of course 4k60p (50p for me in PAL land) in camera will be amazing for music videos.

If you want a quick turn around, sure, this isn't the best camera, I mean, you need to grade it for a start, unless you bake in a LUT, but then why bother? It's a nice option, but I don't really see the point. The difference between baking it in and doing it later in post will be minimal, and only pixel peeping douchbags - luck most of us - will ever notice, and only if they really try to poke holes.

My thoughts at the moment are, if you're going to try and get the right image in camera, don't buy this. If you want to play around in post, then this beats most others.

 

[webrunner5]

7 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Or an Olympus.

FWIW, when I was shooting with my trusty old EM5II I would often think, "How in the hell did I ever shoot stuff before this!?" ;-)

Yeah I have an old Olympus EPL1 that has 2 or 3 axis IBIS in it. It does help some, but Like I have said I am a tripod guy, so I rarely need such a thing.

[Mokara]

10 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

You could look at it that way, or you could see it as putting the post processing control in the hands of the user. I think people are so excited because the tech isn't making a lot of creative decisions for them, you can chose exactly how each frame is going to look.

As long as what you shoot is in focus and is somewhere around the right exposure, all the rest can be fixed, adjusted, twisted and pushed to the limits. Try doing that with most other commonly used codecs and you run into a lot of problems. 

I think if using ProRes was the cheaper, easier route, many more cameras would offer it as an option. Especially considering a lot of people encode all their footage from whatever their camera shoots into ProRes before editing. Or invest in external recorders to get the ProRes files in real time. That process is either time consuming, or expensive - around the same price as this camera in fact. This simply cuts out the BS and gives you what you want and more in the first place. 

AS usual though, that may not be the best thing for everyone in every situation... blah blah blah

Most people who shoot video don't transcode however, nor do they use external recorders. Most editing when it comes to cameras in general is simple stitching together whatever comes out of the camera, which is why things like H.264 and such are important in cameras for general use. 

I am not saying that some people would not find this useful, but when it comes to general purpose cameras things like ProRes are not necessarily an advantage. So when you look at hybrid cameras like those from Canon, Sony or Panasonic, the choices they have made regarding codecs are the best for the likely user base. And that is not really going to change any time soon.

[Kisaha]

15 minutes ago, forofilms said:

I take it you're still using a t2i then? Or is that too uncessarily advanced also?

I am a professional and I am trying to use the best tool for the job. The last cameras I worked with were C300mkII as focus puller with a set of Zeiss and Arri zoom (Fuji), GH5 as a camera operator with the Olympus 12-100mm, and C100mkII with the trio of EF zooms as a camera operator. All of those were set to full M, and manual focus (obviously), no need for IBIS/High ISO/AF whatsoever, but I have to "fight" with the director for my right to use a tripod on the GH5 - IBIS is not a tripod. 

EDIT: just to make my self clear, out of all these "modern" necessities, I am more excited about the Canon DPAF, more than anything else, but when GH5S/BMP4K are offering, what they are offering, what is the point on paying multiple times their money for a C200? If you need EXTREMELY - very fast turn around, then you don't have the budget, and a 9000euros (in my country) camera is an overkill. 

[Anaconda_]

7 minutes ago, Mokara said:

Most people who shoot video don't transcode however, nor do they use external recorders. Most editing when it comes to cameras in general is simple stitching together whatever comes out of the camera, which is why things like H.264 and such are important in cameras for general use. 

That's true, it depends what kind of camera users you're talking about. I took it to mean people in TV, film, music video and documentary, who do transcode everything to the same codec, often ProRes, which is why Atomos and Blackmagic have recorders.

A lot of YouTubers, from what I can see on the channels I see pop up, are still using Canon dSLRs so... do we make our purchases based on theirs? Despite the name of this website, the EOS line is far from loved on here right now (aside from that one, magical one with the 5 in it).

As has been said many times in this thread and all over this forum, choose the camera for the job. If this doesn't fit your needs, buy something else. I for one, am excited to have ProRes 4k50p in camera. It's going to make my kit bag a hell of a lot lighter.

[BTM_Pix]

I'm wondering if you can have a baked in LUT on the HDMI output whilst simultaneously recording RAW without one?

It offers some interesting possibilities if you can....

[webrunner5]

24 minutes ago, Mokara said:

It is a good thing if you are shooting a lot of stuff with a quick turn around and you need a portable solution.

What would this camera be used for? If you are shooting on a set piece there are better options, and if you need mobility there are better options. I think the market for something like this is very limited, likely mostly people at the margins of the profession with extremely thin budgets. Students and those sorts of people. 

There is a lot of people on here that have got, or owned the original BMPCC. I had one myself and have kicked myself in the ass for ever selling it.You just have to have used one to appreciate how fabulous the output on them were, are. And this camera makes it look like a model T.

They are not made to run around like a chicken with your head cut off, they are a slow and steady as you go camera. They are mostly a tripod camera to get the best out of them, just like any Cine camera has to be for the most part. Sure there are rigs for them but they really were a pain in the butt to use. They have a look like no other camera under 5000 bucks or more. And this new one is even WAY better. Beating 10,000 dollar cameras. It is not for everyone that is for sure. But there are not many people on here if they had the extra money, would not buy one. You would not be on here big time if you didn't appreciate what this camera has to offer. It s that good, no AF, No IBIS, etc. And I think it does AF, probably not like a 1Dx mkII but.. This is a Special camera that few will buy, but they will be happy as a pig in shit for what it can output slow as it may be.. And no the Codec is not that bad,  you have to be a bit talented to use it, but they can run on older MBP's and that is saying something LoL.

[Luke Mason]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Yup, the literature states 13 stops but that will be in the perfect scenario. I know with the original Pocket, the most DR came at the base ISO of 800. Since this camera has dual ISO, I can only assume that you will have two options for best DR... 800 and 3200. 

This is why this camera won’t be for everyone. Even with the “better” sensor, we really shouldn’t expect great results higher than 3200 or lower than 800 or anything in between.

Since the camera isn’t due out for 6 months, I’d almost recommend that people who’ve never used a BM camera to pick up a used Pocket I on eBay to try it out. They’ve already come down in price since yesterday. Even with the better specs, a lot of the quirks will be similar.

 

It's a Sony BSI sensor, IMX294CJK, used in GH5S. The DR is about 12.7EV at base gain. The high gain setting loses a bit DR in exchange for low noise, it's clean af!

[Anaconda_]

1 minute ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm wondering if you can have a baked in LUT on the HDMI output whilst simultaneously recording RAW without one?

It offers some interesting possibilities if you can....

You can if you record to an Atomos recorder :P 

[Andrew Reid]

5 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm wondering if you can have a baked in LUT on the HDMI output whilst simultaneously recording RAW without one?

It offers some interesting possibilities if you can....

Or RAW to CFast card and ProRes to SD card both internally. I'd like that.

[BTM_Pix]

Just now, Anaconda_ said:

You can if you record to an Atomos recorder :P 

I was thinking along the lines of something similar but much cheaper but it would require it being on the output.

We'll see I suppose.

[Andrew Reid]

If it does RAW over USB C at same time as ProRes to card... That would be an easy solution.

I have a feeling one might switch off though, otherwise it becomes a Pocket grenade.

[BTM_Pix]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Or RAW to CFast card and ProRes to SD card both internally. I'd like that.

Why not.

They've already gone "yeah, fuck it" and thrown the kitchen sink at it for that price !

[webrunner5]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Or RAW to CFast card and ProRes to SD card both internally. I'd like that.

That would be sweet if that happened!

[mercer]

9 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:

It's a Sony BSI sensor, IMX294CJK, used in GH5S. The DR is about 12.7EV at base gain. The high gain setting loses a bit DR in exchange for low noise, it's clean af!

It’s clean af when you have noise reduction and sharpening. ProRes won’t have that. Trust me, you may get a little more wiggle room but this camera will not be as clean as an a7s or a GH5s at high ISOs and you will lose DR the further away from base... a noticeable amount. 

Not to mention, has it been confirmed that this is the sensor... because so far I believe it’s just conjecture... although likely. 

[Andrew Reid]

You can do NR in Resolve to a higher standard than in the GH5S or any other camera... Tons of processing power to throw at the RAW files and you get to choose how much film-like grain to keep.

[mercer]

I agree and the ISO won’t matter, as much, with Raw anyway. But with ProRes, you will not have 13 stops of DR at ISO 12,800... you’ll be lucky to have 9 or 10 stops and your shadows will be a hot mess.

Now we’ll probably get a little more wiggle room than we had with the original Pocket, but I wouldn’t expect miracles.

[Andrew Reid]

No camera has 13 stops at ISO 12,800 to my knowledge though!

The shadows will be great in ProRes... Even original Blackmagic camera was creamy, though limited to ISO 1600 max.

[mercer]

Right at one stop away from Base ISO... at two stops or more, I don’t think they’ll be as clean. Most people who shot with the original Pocket would never change their ISO from 800 when shooting ProRes. And with Raw, you could change it all you wanted but the ISO was 800. Again, I assume it will be better but this won’t be an a7s or GH5s.