Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Nathan Gabriel]

15 hours ago, jonpais said:

who is we? I use them all the time.

My bad I should have said "I" instead of "we". Personally I have never been a fan of autofocus (and don't you use veydras? In fact, when I was thinking about getting my first autofocus lens, you specifically said you couldn't test the sigma 16mm autofocus because you don't like using autofocus). I guess part of me has this obtuse attitude in which I honestly enjoy and prefer manual focusing regardless of the rare situations where autofocus might provided marginally better results. I do enjoy the IBIS on my gx85, but I don't think it is desirable for gimbal use or car mounts. I know you've said otherwise. My point was not to say that AF and IBIS are never useful, but that there are some times when I'd intentionally avoid using them. IBIS can't be fully turned off which can be problematic for some. AF I simply never use (like it's been more than 5 years since I've used AF in anything other than my smartphone and GoPro). At the very least, IBIS is far less important to me than battery life or an articulating screen (if the gh5s were the same price as the pocket, if take it's better life and screen over the pockets codec. But this is a controversial preference I'm sure). I guess I'm open to being converted on the issue of IBIS (pm me some comparisons if you like). AF and IBIS seem nice for quick travel photos with the family, but frivolous for the pocket's intended use. Sorry for the long wandering response.

[RWR]

"Of course we have to see what the actual image quality is like."

Right.

Which tends to put more err..focus..on other issues, including ergonomics...avoidance of add ons like monitors etc. Different users will have different wants.

[Damphousse]

8 hours ago, kye said:

Could you mount the external monitor on the handle of the gimbal and run a (very flexible) cable to the camera?  I've seen people running cables from fixed microphones or power banks to the camera on a gimbal before and they seem to work.

If you have any examples of this handy can you link to them?  I'm thinking of doing something like that with a battery.

[kye]

 

1 hour ago, Damphousse said:

If you have any examples of this handy can you link to them?  I'm thinking of doing something like that with a battery.

I did a quick google and found these - hopefully they're helpful?  Most people are doing this to mount an external microphone, but a battery should be similar.

Skip to about 2:30 in the above for where he connects the external microphone.  Spoiler - making sure the cable has some slack in it is the key.

Here's another example:

The gimbal will need to have the horsepower to move the cable around, which normally isn't a problem.  If it were me and it was a more permanent part of my setup I'd buy a longer cable and run it from the camera to the handle by attaching it to each moving section of the gimbal, allowing lots of slack at each of the motors to ensure it has the full range of movement.  This would prevent the cable from flapping around or getting caught on anything, but would take some time and effort to setup.

[kye]

7 hours ago, Nathan Gabriel said:

My bad I should have said "I" instead of "we". Personally I have never been a fan of autofocus (and don't you use veydras? In fact, when I was thinking about getting my first autofocus lens, you specifically said you couldn't test the sigma 16mm autofocus because you don't like using autofocus). I guess part of me has this obtuse attitude in which I honestly enjoy and prefer manual focusing regardless of the rare situations where autofocus might provided marginally better results. I do enjoy the IBIS on my gx85, but I don't think it is desirable for gimbal use or car mounts. I know you've said otherwise. My point was not to say that AF and IBIS are never useful, but that there are some times when I'd intentionally avoid using them. IBIS can't be fully turned off which can be problematic for some. AF I simply never use (like it's been more than 5 years since I've used AF in anything other than my smartphone and GoPro). At the very least, IBIS is far less important to me than battery life or an articulating screen (if the gh5s were the same price as the pocket, if take it's better life and screen over the pockets codec. But this is a controversial preference I'm sure). I guess I'm open to being converted on the issue of IBIS (pm me some comparisons if you like). AF and IBIS seem nice for quick travel photos with the family, but frivolous for the pocket's intended use. Sorry for the long wandering response.

Your post inspired me to start a new topic about how I see the differences in priorities that film-makers have

 

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

If you have any examples of this handy can you link to them?  I'm thinking of doing something like that with a battery.

Here's an example with a battery...

It's from this campaign: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gimbal-with-focus-control-skyvideo-pro#/

[John Brawley]

On 5/21/2018 at 4:45 PM, jonpais said:

who is we? I use them all the time.

I'll put my hand up too and say I never use AF and only sometimes use IS.  IS is great on static shots, but problematic on moving / tracking shots.  Just like gimbals, with many "tells" for bad operating.

But I'm not everyone.

JB

[Savannah Miller]

IBIS works better I find than lens IS and gets too jerky at times.

[andrgl]

Everytime I get some camera GAS and start to pour of the alternatives, I realize just how damn small the Pocket 4K is!

There isn't a camera like it for its size. And price wise it makes you second guess actually buying that camera you rent all the time.

[jonpais]

On 5/22/2018 at 6:52 PM, John Brawley said:

I'll put my hand up too and say I never use AF and only sometimes use IS.  IS is great on static shots, but problematic on moving / tracking shots.  Just like gimbals, with many "tells" for bad operating.

But I'm not everyone.

JB

IBIS worked well enough for your video of Hula expert Roxanna shot with Olympus. At the time you had this to say:

One of the main reasons I like shooting Olympus so much in this platform is that their stabiliser is really world class.  And the best thing is that because it’s built into the body itself, any lens you mount on their can be turned into a stabilised lens.  Any vintage lens, and cinema lens I happen to adapt.  Or the wonderful new APO primes from SLR Magic.

Curiously, no mention at all of IBIS only being good for locked off shots - if that were the case, it would be of no use whatsoever. Unfortunately, mirrorless cameras are more prone to jitters than heavy cinema cameras, so IBIS comes in pretty handy. It also helps enormously to iron out the wriggles in gimbal shots, as demonstrated in numerous videos online. 

Which is the reason I like IBIS so much - it turns my Veydras into stabilized lenses that can be handheld at eqiuvalent focal lengths of 238 mm, allowing me to shoot in places where a tripod or gimbal would either be forbidden or attract too much attention.

Just in case anyone misunderstands, I could care less whether the Batcam’s got IBIS or not. And I’m thrilled it’s not going to have functioning AF-C either, because, as Mr Glencairn rightly points out, true cinematographers don’t need that shit.

[ajay]

Found this clip on Youtube...Not sure if it's legit, but it certainly appears to have that BlackMagic look about it:

 

Here's another sample...Low Light:

 

[jonpais]

fake

[Anaconda_]

BM just cleared up the cropping thing for me. I was under the impression HD 100fps would not be cropped, but 120fps would be. I thought I heard a rep say that, but according to this, I was wrong. I wanted to share for anyone else who thought the same.

[John Brawley]

7 hours ago, jonpais said:

IBIS worked well enough for your video of Hula expert Roxanna shot with Olympus. At the time you had this to say:

One of the main reasons I like shooting Olympus so much in this platform is that their stabiliser is really world class.  And the best thing is that because it’s built into the body itself, any lens you mount on their can be turned into a stabilised lens.  Any vintage lens, and cinema lens I happen to adapt.  Or the wonderful new APO primes from SLR Magic.

Curiously, no mention at all of IBIS only being good for locked off shots - if that were the case, it would be of no use whatsoever. Unfortunately, mirrorless cameras are more prone to jitters than heavy cinema cameras, so IBIS comes in pretty handy. It also helps enormously to iron out the wriggles in gimbal shots, as demonstrated in numerous videos online. 

Which is the reason I like IBIS so much - it turns my Veydras into stabilized lenses that can be handheld at eqiuvalent focal lengths of 238 mm, allowing me to shoot in places where a tripod or gimbal would either be forbidden or attract too much attention.

Just in case anyone misunderstands, I could care less whether the Batcam’s got IBIS or not. And I’m thrilled it’s not going to have functioning AF-C either, because, as Mr Glencairn rightly points out, true cinematographers don’t need that shit.

I'm not sure what point you're making ?

I use many cameras in the course of the work that I do.  One of the reasons I CHOOSE to use a camera like the EM1 Mark II is because it has IBIS.  I just used it recently on a pilot I was shooting in Chicago for some tracking shots in a vehicle.  The small size is perfect and the IBIS works great.  Those shots are in the finished pilot and the director loved them.

But I wouldn't use IBIS all the time because it's not really a replacement for a dolly move or slider, though a lot of people expect it to be able to do those kinds of shots. 

Does that clarify your confusion ?

JB

 

[jonpais]

21 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

I'm not sure what point you're making ?

I use many cameras in the course of the work that I do.  One of the reasons I CHOOSE to use a camera like the EM1 Mark II is because it has IBIS.  I just used it recently on a pilot I was shooting in Chicago for some tracking shots in a vehicle.  The small size is perfect and the IBIS works great.  Those shots are in the finished pilot and the director loved them.

But I wouldn't use IBIS all the time because it's not really a replacement for a dolly move or slider, though a lot of people expect it to be able to do those kinds of shots. 

Does that clarify your confusion ?

JB

 

Nobody said anything about using anything all the time, John. And I don’t know anyone who thinks IBIS is a replacement for a slider.... do you?

Edit: earlier you said IS was problematic on tracking shots, now you’re saying you used it successfully on a tracking shot...

[John Brawley]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Nobody said anything about using anything all the time, John. And I don’t know anyone who thinks IBIS is a replacement for a slider.... do you?

Edit: earlier you said IS was problematic on tracking shots, now you’re saying you used it successfully on a tracking shot...

I know plenty that feel IBIS is almost as good as a gimbal and therefore can be used in place of a dolly for tracking shots. 

As as opposed to me in a car tracking someone, the example I gave.

Thats two different types of tracking shots. 

And by the way you said “locked off” shots which I didn’t actually say and is not what I’m talking about IBIS being good at.

Keep trying.

JB

[anonim]

13 hours ago, jonpais said:

Unfortunately, mirrorless cameras are more prone to jitters than heavy cinema cameras, so IBIS comes in pretty handy. It also helps enormously to iron out the wriggles in gimbal shots, as demonstrated in numerous videos online. 

Agree. I remember that I was sold for usability of solo and solo+gimbal possibilities of IBIS after watched two brilliant examples, and after remarkable author encouraged and favored combined usage of both in the second example: "In fact I tested the camera on the gimbal with IS turned off and on and I expected that having it ON would make it worse because they would fight each other....however I found that the camera IS being turned on whilst on the gimbal helped improve the overall feel of the shot and took out a few of the minor jitters." 

 

[kye]

4 hours ago, John Brawley said:

I know plenty that feel IBIS is almost as good as a gimbal and therefore can be used in place of a dolly for tracking shots. 

As as opposed to me in a car tracking someone, the example I gave.

Thats two different types of tracking shots. 

I shoot almost exclusively hand-held and IS is wonderful, but you are right that it doesn't replace a dolly or slider for camera moves.

IS only smooths out camera rotation, not camera movement.  Which is why I try and do a dolly shot by hand it looks terrible because instead of the foreground moving smoothly in front of the background the two planes move around shakily in relation to each other because I can't move the camera at a fixed speed horizontally, and I can't eliminate me moving it vertically!

I think this is one of the key reasons that all the cool kids on YouTube shooting hand-held always use slow motion for their shallow depth-of-field B-Roll shots because when you slow things down you also slow down their jerky camera movement.

[John Brawley]

16 hours ago, anonim said:

Agree. I remember that I was sold for usability of solo and solo+gimbal possibilities of IBIS after watched two brilliant examples, and after remarkable author encouraged and favored combined usage of both in the second example: "In fact I tested the camera on the gimbal with IS turned off and on and I expected that having it ON would make it worse because they would fight each other....however I found that the camera IS being turned on whilst on the gimbal helped improve the overall feel of the shot and took out a few of the minor jitters." 

Hi. 

Thank you for the words. 

I only used a Gimbal in Curiosity and it was only for a handful of shots. The orbit around the actor on the bush track and the wide in the water pumping station along with a few shots at the end.

Intrigue, the other clip, is entirely hand held aside from a couple of obvious car mount shots (where I forgot to turn IBIS OFF)

I have mixed feelings about gimbals and just like IBIS, they’re good in certain situations. I tend to use something like a gimbal for tracking shots rather than relying on IBIS. 

As I mentioned way back, ibis works best to stabilise hand held shots that aren’t tracking in some way. Which is not the same as locked off shots. 

Any good operator knows that on a long lens the shot is easier to hold steady if you keep it moving slightly. This can be a gentle rock of changing weight as you operate the shot. By keeping the shot “alive” you’re less likely to notice jitter.  With very light and small MILC and dslr style cameras they’re actually harder to hand hold when they have less mass. 

IBIS helps smooth out the jitter on hand held shots like this that aren’t tracking but you’re also not locked into one position.

Depending on the storytelling style you might prefer hand held in a more “natural” style too.  After trying gimbals out for a while when they first became available I’ve tended to not really use them except for very particular shots that they’re great at.

But for 97% of my work it’s not stabilised by gimbal or IBIS, mostly because I only use these kinds of rigs for shots where I need IBIS. 

JB

 

[Axel]

Very good examples of handheld & gimbal work. 

I am really not a very good camera operator (boring framing, I judge this in the NLE). But one thing seems so important to me that it's the first thing I master with every camera: how to avoid shaky shots (focus, expose, the whole pilot's checklist). No IBIS? Okay, if that's a dealbreaker for anyone, move on!

The concept of this camera is image quality through less in-camera corrections. Purer and honester images. The concept of a camera with IBIS, multiple AF programs, a big palette of picture profiles, internal lens corrections asf. is also image quality, but a with fundamentally different approach. This should be understood.

[jonpais]

1 hour ago, Axel said:

Very good examples of handheld & gimbal work. 

I am really not a very good camera operator (boring framing, I judge this in the NLE). But one thing seems so important to me that it's the first thing I master with every camera: how to avoid shaky shots (focus, expose, the whole pilot's checklist). No IBIS? Okay, if that's a dealbreaker for anyone, move on!

The concept of this camera is image quality through less in-camera corrections. Purer and honester images. The concept of a camera with IBIS, multiple AF programs, a big palette of picture profiles, internal lens corrections asf. is also image quality, but a with fundamentally different approach. This should be understood.

It sounds like nobody can question anything at all about the camera, and it hasn’t even been released. If it had dual pixel autofocus, would you also take a pass? a long life Panasonic battery? Or are you in Frank Glencairn’s camp - only sissies complain about battery life?