Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Savannah Miller]

Oops.  It does have dual gain, but I was referring to the dual sensor readout like the Alexa and previous BM cameras use.  It helps to increase dynamic range.

[Damphousse]

3 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

Regarding DR, I have a hunch that the pocket 4K will have slightly less than the  older pocket due to the older cam having larger photosites and dual gain architecture.

No need for your "hunches".  The manufacturer already told us it has the exact same DR as the BMPCC.  It is in the product description on the manufacture's site.

[Savannah Miller]

12 hours ago, Damphousse said:

No need for your "hunches".  The manufacturer already told us it has the exact same DR as the BMPCC.  It is in the product description on the manufacture's site.

13 stops is a manufacturer rating.  Some cameras have more DR despite the same numbers because they may round 12.5 to 13, or some cameras more confidently capture that range better than others too.

Kinefinity claims 14 stops on their Terra 4K camera as well as on their Mavo 6K camera.  But does the Terra 4K have remotely the same dynamic range as the Mavo 6K?  No it does not.

Likewise they claimed 16 stops in the "golden 3K" mode on the Terra 6K, but did it really have a noticeable 2 stops more?  No it did not.

"Stops" of dynamic range are just claims that anyone can make and not have to back up with evidence.  Wouldn't it be easier if blackmagic just went and said it has 13 stops so it's about the same as the original pocket?  It could be 1/2 stop less, but just doesn't market well to sell a cinema camera with a DR downgrade.  Notice how RED nowhere in their marketing ever claimed that Helium had less dynamic range than Dragon even though that was definitely true?

[kye]

Hunches are fine when declared as so.  The problem is when people state their hunches as fact.. 

If we deleted all the posts that were speculation, opinion, rampant imagination, and fighting over Canon 1080p and colour science, etc there would only be a small amount of content remaining here!!

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Savannah Miller said:

13 stops is a manufacturer rating.  Some cameras have more DR despite the same numbers because they may round 12.5 to 13, or some cameras more confidently capture that range better than others too.

Kinefinity claims 14 stops on their Terra 4K camera as well as on their Mavo 6K camera.  But does the Terra 4K have remotely the same dynamic range as the Mavo 6K?  No it does not.

Likewise they claimed 16 stops in the "golden 3K" mode on the Terra 6K, but did it really have a noticeable 2 stops more?  No it did not.

"Stops" of dynamic range are just claims that anyone can make and not have to back up with evidence.  Wouldn't it be easier if blackmagic just went and said it has 13 stops so it's about the same as the original pocket?  It could be 1/2 stop less, but just doesn't market well to sell a cinema camera with a DR downgrade.  Notice how RED nowhere in their marketing ever claimed that Helium had less dynamic range than Dragon even though that was definitely true?

It is not too hard to get more stops of DR when you go higher like 6K, 8K in Raw. Raw easily adds 1 1/2 stops or a bit more. That stuff is usually 14 to 16 bit on larger sensors. Heck the Red 8K Weapon is claiming 20 stops. That is what the human eye is suppose to be I think. Since I know no one that has a 8K monitor I guess I will have to take their word for it. ?

[jonpais]

Supposedly even the GH5s has 14.6 stops DR. ?

[DBounce]

10 hours ago, jonpais said:

Supposedly even the GH5s has 14.6 stops DR. ?

Well that report was put out be a highly respected source... so it probably accurate. But expect some of that DR to be noisy. 

[webrunner5]

Wrong Thread. Hey I am old.

[Savannah Miller]

I don't know but that might be theoretical performance.  I've never seen anyone shooting kinefinity terra 4K or GH5s that has been able to produce even remotely that dynamic range.  Even using the same parameters that can produce 18 stops on RED cameras (which is a ludicrous claim) I don't think you can get over 13.

[webrunner5]

3 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

I don't know but that might be theoretical performance.  I've never seen anyone shooting kinefinity terra 4K or GH5s that has been able to produce even remotely that dynamic range.  Even using the same parameters that can produce 18 stops on RED cameras (which is a ludicrous claim) I don't think you can get over 13.

18 stops is possible on the 8K W model. They don't charge $54,500.00 for 13 stops! And hell that is just for the Brain!

Look at the test and see it with your own eyes. Phil Holland, is one of the Moderators on Reduser.net. He is one smart guy. I Believe his test.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?154113-RED-8K-Sensor-Test-2017

Heck I can get nearly 13 true stops, Maybe a bit more on my Sony A7s in SLog 2. And no, no GH5 has 12 stops in reality. More like 11.5 tops.

https://nofilmschool.com/2014/07/sony-a7s-dynamic-range-arri-alexa-amira

 

[Juxx989]

Is it True that Human Vision can Hold up to 30+ Stops of DR?

[IronFilm]

On 6/22/2018 at 2:58 PM, Damphousse said:

can see how that argument would work... in a parallel universe where we hadn't already seen the prerelease footage.

The footage is bad.  We all agree on that. 

I wouldn't agree, I'd just say it hasn't been put in capable hands yet. 

`

On 6/22/2018 at 2:58 PM, Damphousse said:

And the company has a terrible track record. 

Ditto. I do not see that Z Cam has a terrible track record (certainly not vs its main competition). 

 

On 6/22/2018 at 6:11 PM, John Brawley said:

They did something similar with the pocket about 18 months after they launched if I remember.  In fact I think it dropped even more than that.

It was  half price sale of the BMPCC for $500, is when I purchased my BMPCC. 
And even secondhand prices now today in 2018 are still higher than that brand new price I paid for my BMPCC!!
Maybe finally with the BMPCC4K launch we'll see secondhand BMPCC prices full under $500 on eBay, all these years later. 

On 6/22/2018 at 9:40 PM, Bioskop.Inc said:

Yep, this is what I'll be waiting for - they dropped the Pocket to half price & it was a steal, no contest!

BMD has never ever done this for any other camera. 

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that to happen for the BMPCC4K. 

 

[cantsin]

On 6/21/2018 at 4:51 PM, helium said:

As for the color in your sample -- sorry, but to my eyes, it looks like barely graded log footage.  And, given the lighting and shooting style, it's Impossible to assess much of anything, unless the object is to achieve just that -- an unlit log look.   

Here's a sample comparison between the Rec709 footage (as used in the video / created with Resolve's Color Space Transformation tool) and the original log footage [i.e. CinemaDNG interpreted as Blackmagic Film log]:

 

[helium]

1 hour ago, cantsin said:

Here's a sample comparison between the Rec709 footage (as used in the video / created with Resolve's Color Space Transformation tool) and the original log footage [i.e. CinemaDNG interpreted as Blackmagic Film log]:

 

 

 

 

 

I agree they're not identical, but the way in which you've processed the raw files doesn't, as I see it, reveal much about the color science of the camera.  I don't think you'd need a  BMD camera to achieve the log look you have here. 

Then again, maybe it's my eyes.  It's impossible to say whether that stolen BMPCC 4K footage from NAB means anything for what actually gets shipped, but you had people critiquing the color as if it were normalized rec 709.  To me, it was plainly some variant of log, which required processing and color shifts.

[cantsin]

20 minutes ago, helium said:

I agree they're not identical, but the way in which you've processed the raw files doesn't, as I see it, reveal much about the color science of the camera.  I don't think you'd need a  BMD camera to achieve the log look you have here. 

It's not a log look, it's a generic, high-dynamic range Rec709 look using Blackmagic's default color science. In the prosumer price range of the BM Pocket, a few cameras can do this (Fuji, Canon and Nikon for example), but only in 8bit without the possibilities of heavily grading/tweaking the image.

I posted this footage here because @jonpais was complaining about the over-graded/-stylized BM Pocket footage that he had seen so far. 

[helium]

20 minutes ago, cantsin said:

It's not a log look, it's a generic, high-dynamic range Rec709 look using Blackmagic's default color science. In the prosumer price range of the BM Pocket, a few cameras can do this (Fuji, Canon and Nikon for example), but only in 8bit without the possibilities of heavily grading/tweaking the image.

I 

Call it what you like, but it's a low contrast/low saturation style which resembles log footage -- and which has since become common in both low budget and higher end feature film material.

I don't know what Jon Pais objected to it, but does anyone really expect to see professionally graded footage routinely posted on youtube and similar (and as seen on an uncalibrated computer screen?) 

[cantsin]

12 minutes ago, helium said:

Call it what you like, but it's a low contrast/low saturation style which resembles log footage -- and which has since become common in both low budget and higher end feature film material.

In the sample screengrabs, the blue hair has 60% saturation in the blue channel, and the sweater in the background 60% saturation in the red channel... With more, you'd be in Technicolor or cartoon territory.

[jonpais]

He doesn’t know what I objected to, but he’s certain it was on YT and that I watched on an uncalibrated monitor. And he keeps saying @cantsin ‘s video looks like log footage even though it clearly does not. 

[Snuff]

A quote from the review of Terra 4K: https://nofilmschool.com/2018/04/review-kinefinity-terra-4k-offers-bang-buck

Quote

Dynamic Range. This is a big one. Kinefinity claims 14 stops. I’ve attended one test personally and have seen the results of another online that both peg the dynamic range of the Terra 4K at 12 2/3 stops, more than a stop lower than the manufacturer’s claim. RAW recording has not yet been enabled via firmware update so it’s possible that the addition of RAW will add some more highlight retention, but the camera does not seem to be able to record the claimed 14 stops that were part of my buying decision. This is disappointing. I reached out to Kinefinity for comment and they’ve said that an engineer is investigating the issue.

[helium]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

He doesn’t know what I objected to, but he’s certain it was on YT and that I watched on an uncalibrated monitor. And he keeps saying @cantsin ‘s video looks like log footage even though it clearly does not. 

Yes, I'm a deluded clairvoyant (BMPCC youtube forever, jon!) who wouldn't know 3-strip Technicolor if it painted his driveway.  It might be better to return to pointless speculation about an unreleased product, as there won't be agreement on this matter, or even on what constitutes current color grading norms.