Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[IronFilm]

22 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Comparing BMD and Kinefinity with other companies like Arri is ludicrous.

I'm comparing them in the sense they've all made a sensor in a box with a lens mount on it, just showing how ludicrous it is to think RED has a monopoly on this and should extract a thousand bucks royalty per camera. 

17 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Eh, what!? 

The Kinefinity is the same design as a Red in the same way a Canon DSLR is the same design as a Nikon one, or a Sony ENG camera the same design as a Panasonic one, or a Brand A car fundamentally the same design as a brand B car. They all have the same basic design and configuration. 

 

Exactly!! 

Tone1k gets it. (nice username btw!)

22 minutes ago, sanveer said:

I think you just stated something that made absolutely no sense. I mentioned Olympus because they aren't famous for their video capabilities and also because Sony and even Canon, the players with best Autofocus, are in direct competition with them in the Super High-end Cineme Cameras range. 

My point is at the moment BMD has other focuses than auto focus (ha! A pun). 

[jonpais]

Each manufacturer’s AF system is fine-tuned to work best with their own lenses, and since BMD makes none, I doubt video AF-C would ever be better than mediocre anyhow. 

[webrunner5]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Wow. I thought your earlier comment was pretty borderline hardcore red fanboyism, but this takes the cake! Even this would be exceptionally rare to see on reduser.net 

Kinefinity doesn't owe them a dime. Neither do they deserve that vitriol. Be specific in what  you're falsely accusing Kinefinity of "stealing" from RED. 

What, are you going to say Arri and Blackmagic Design also owes RED a thousand bucks of royalty per camera as well???

Putting a sensor in a box and putting a lens mount on it doesn't mean you get to call others "thieves", there is really nothing that special about that.

RED themselves also benefited greatly from those who had came before them. 
 

 

I see you took made an effort to take off the part where I said I was kidding. Nice move on your part.

[Savannah Miller]

What's interesting is Kinefinity fixed a lot of issues that RED has with their cameras.  From the beginning they always designed a shallow sensor so that you can mount many different lens options.  On top of that, their sensors can be speedboosted easily.

 

I'm 100% for a collaboration with Olympus to build a model with IBIS and Autofocus.  They are ahead of the game in those areas for micro 4/3.

If blackmagic built a camera with a sony sensor (like mavo 6k, DJI, etc.), shrunk the size down,  kept the same color science, and added autofocus, it would be a slam dunk against cameras like the c200 because of no market segmentation and professional features like prores.  I mention a sony sensor because it will have higher iso performance and lesser cooling requirements, leading to a smaller camera.

Blackmagic is the only brand building cameras without market segmentation and including every feature they can.  If they just add a few things to their cameras and shrink the size a bit, they can cause a huge shift in the industry as a lot of other camera manufacturers will lose sales.

[webrunner5]

30 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

What's interesting is Kinefinity fixed a lot of issues that RED has with their cameras.  From the beginning they always designed a shallow sensor so that you can mount many different lens options.  On top of that, their sensors can be speedboosted easily.

Been done for several types. Fake news LoL.

http://www.red.com/store/lens-mounts

http://optitek.org/products/new-hasselblad-to-red-cameras-adapter-with-speed-booster/

https://***URL not allowed***/abt-speedmount-ef-speedbooster-red-camera/

[IronFilm]

And Sony (and I'm sure others) did it even earlier than RED. 

[Anaconda_]

For those looking into using this with the new Ronin S:

[Savannah Miller]

7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Been done for several types. Fake news LoL.

http://www.red.com/store/lens-mounts

http://optitek.org/products/new-hasselblad-to-red-cameras-adapter-with-speed-booster/

https://***URL not allowed***/abt-speedmount-ef-speedbooster-red-camera/

No.  The sensors in red cameras are sunk too far into the bodies for certain mounts (e-mount being one of them.)  And because of the distance the sensor is from the body opening, it's very hard to build a speedbooster.  The currently developed abt speedbooster for the RED cameras is ridiculously expensive because every speedbooster is built by hand from one of red's mounts (which are already expensive.)  And on top of that, the ABT speedbooster is not a huge sensor size increase like Metabones is, it's much smaller.  Imagine a speedbooster on the Raven, which is basically a micro 4/3 EF mount camera.  Not possible.

 

RED has promised to stick with the DSMC2 body design for another few years so that will also limit what they can do with their cameras.

[webrunner5]

2 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

No.  The sensors in red cameras are sunk too far into the bodies for certain mounts (e-mount being one of them.)  And because of the distance the sensor is from the body opening, it's very hard to build a speedbooster.  The currently developed abt speedbooster for the RED cameras is ridiculously expensive because every speedbooster is built by hand from one of red's mounts (which are already expensive.)  And on top of that, the ABT speedbooster is not a huge sensor size increase like Metabones is, it's much smaller.  Imagine a speedbooster on the Raven, which is basically a micro 4/3 EF mount camera.  Not possible.

 

RED has promised to stick with the DSMC2 body design for another few years so that will also limit what they can do with their cameras.

The Sony E mount has a depth of 18mm which is way too shallow for using on a Red camera. The sensor is nearly on the flange on Sony cameras. Look at this picture of a FS7 mk II.

This the the Kinefinity mount options. Other than E mount I don't see anymore listed that Red has. Actually there is less of them.

http://www.kinefinity.com/product-category/kine_acc-en/previous-accessories/mount-adapters/?lang=en

[sanveer]

10 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

I'm 100% for a collaboration with Olympus to build a model with IBIS and Autofocus.  They are ahead of the game in those areas for micro 4/3.

If blackmagic built a camera with a sony sensor (like mavo 6k, DJI, etc.), shrunk the size down,  kept the same color science, and added autofocus, it would be a slam dunk against cameras like the c200 because of no market segmentation and professional features like prores.  I mention a sony sensor because it will have higher iso performance and lesser cooling requirements, leading to a smaller camera.

Thank you. IBIS, Autofocus AND Weather-sealing ?

Also, Olympus and Sigma (who incidentally seems to have designed and made the Panny Leica Nocticron) are leading the 4/3 Party in lens quality and selection. If Blackmagic could convince either of them to make fast constant zooms (f1.8 - 2), the collaboration could benefit every camera company using the M43 ecosystem. The f1.2 Olympus Primes are already superb, and a cine version of them could replace almost every other 4/3 cine lens system out there. 

[Savannah Miller]

31 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Thank you. IBIS, Autofocus AND Weather-sealing ?

Also, Olympus and Sigma (who incidentally seems to have designed and made the Panny Leica Nocticron) are leading the 4/3 Party in lens quality and selection. If Blackmagic could convince either of them to make fast constant zooms (f1.8 - 2), the collaboration could benefit every camera company using the M43 ecosystem. The f1.2 Olympus Primes are already superb, and a cine version of them could replace almost every other 4/3 cine lens system out there. 

Weather sealing is unnecessary.  You need ventilation for cooling, and as long as the electronics are not exposed directly, it's not a problem.  For a cinema camera I'd rather have higher framerates and features over weathersealing.

 

IBIS I don't see blackmagic ever doing, because unless the build more into micro 4/3, IBIS doesn't work nearly as well on super 35 and full frame cameras.  I would like to see a BM camera with IBIS, but not sure if that will ever happen. I would say autofocus is a possibility, especially since it would be useful anyways as more cameras get it and they won't want to be behind.

[sanveer]

53 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

Weather sealing is unnecessary.  You need ventilation for cooling, and as long as the electronics are not exposed directly, it's not a problem.  For a cinema camera I'd rather have higher framerates and features over weathersealing.

 

IBIS I don't see blackmagic ever doing, because unless the build more into micro 4/3, IBIS doesn't work nearly as well on super 35 and full frame cameras.  I would like to see a BM camera with IBIS, but not sure if that will ever happen. I would say autofocus is a possibility, especially since it would be useful anyways as more cameras get it and they won't want to be behind.

I agree qeather sealing is probably not necessary, maybe because its not going to be used as a sports cam. 

IBIS is great for smaller crews and gor guerrilla work, or walking (which is impossible with stabilized lenses alone). IBIS is more successful in M43 cameras because the mount is usually much smaller than the sensor, and the sensor has more space to move around (especially in comparison to Sony's cameras woth IBIS).

[Savannah Miller]

The Red Raven is a micro 4/3 camera in 16x9 mode so it would be so much easier if it was a true Micro 4/3 mount, but that's likely not possible because the sensor is too far into the body.  Sticking with the DSMC2 design limits them with certain features they can/cannot add as well as cooling.  Blackmagic is much more flexible in building cameras that match the sensors.

RED probably gave the full 4.5K due to competition from the ursa mini 4.6K.

[Tone1k]

I personally don't see the big deal with IBIS in a camera like the Pocket 4K especially with all the hand-held gimbals on the market. Every lens and camera becomes stabilised with a gimbal and with the price of the Pocket 4K, you should be able to afford a good gimbal if you need stabilised shots. 

Sure, a gimbal is a little more cumbersome than IBIS but gimbals work much much better than ANY stabilised sensor. And if you are buying the Pocket4k, you are most likely shooting RAW or ProRes (pro formats) so you should be chasing pro results that a gimbal can give you and IBIS can't. If you are a hobbyist and just shoot handheld with no rigging , the pocket4k is overkill (even for the price) or get a stabilised lens but a Mirrorless or DSLR with IBIS might be a better option for you. Despite the price, this is a cinema camera and how many cinema cameras have IBIS? I'm not willing to pay for it or deal with its setbacks even when disabled. 

 

[Savannah Miller]

I don't like the look of a gimbal, but I don't 100% need IBIS either.  I also hate the look of the tiny shakes you get with smaller cameras too.  I prefer a steadicam or glidecam alternative, or some sort of shoulder/chest stabilizer.

[Tone1k]

52 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

I don't like the look of a gimbal, but I don't 100% need IBIS either.  I also hate the look of the tiny shakes you get with smaller cameras too.  I prefer a steadicam or glidecam alternative, or some sort of shoulder/chest stabilizer.

I agree that a gimbal still doesn't replace a steadycam for smoothness but from what I've seen of the ronin s, the gap is certainly closing. I've seem some super smooth stuff from the ronin s..... Something IBIS will never replicate. 

[Savannah Miller]

I don't like the locked off look of a gimbal for a lot of scenarios, but it depends.  I prefer a smooth movement, but one that looks "real."  A handheld camera with really good ibis is exactly the look I like, but that's mostly for stationary shots.  

[Tone1k]

21 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

I don't like the locked off look of a gimbal for a lot of scenarios, but it depends.  I prefer a smooth movement, but one that looks "real."  A handheld camera with really good ibis is exactly the look I like, but that's mostly for stationary shots.  

For stationary shots, try a monopod or shoulder rig if you want some natural looking movement. 

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

This the the Kinefinity mount options. Other than E mount I don't see anymore listed that Red has.

E mount is a major advantage though, as that opens up a wealth of options. (for instance any of the zillions of E mount adapters, or many manual E mount lenses such as the Veydra cinema lenses!)

 

3 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

The Red Raven is a micro 4/3 camera in 16x9 mode so it would be so much easier if it was a true Micro 4/3 mount, but that's likely not possible because the sensor is too far into the body. 

RED Raven's "low" price + a MFT mount might have made it a too compelling option for RED buyers to instead get!

[helium]

8 hours ago, Tone1k said:

I agree that a gimbal still doesn't replace a steadycam for smoothness but from what I've seen of the ronin s, the gap is certainly closing. I've seem some super smooth stuff from the ronin s..... Something IBIS will never replicate. 

What exactly did you see?  I didn't look at all of it, but the stuff the company posted is impossible to evaluate -- lots of cool slow motion and ramps, shots which last 1.5 seconds, shots without stable horizontal or vertical references, etc.  Ronin-S can't change the laws of physics or make for better skilled operators....