Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Just to be clear, the E mount option on Kinefininty is a DUMB mount as far as I know. 

That is why I didn't list any electronic E mount lenses in my comment:

 

18 hours ago, IronFilm said:

E mount is a major advantage though, as that opens up a wealth of options. (for instance any of the zillions of E mount adapters, or many manual E mount lenses such as the Veydra cinema lenses!)

 

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, John Brawley said:

(...) Companies like Cineform are rumoured to be what Redcode is.  He bought the tessive guys, turned that into motion mount.  He bought Accuscene and they became the first EVF.  Trying to remember but he also bought a matte-box company too. 

I was there too when the first announcement came and there was a lot of naysayers on CML.  I seem to remember a bet and someone eating a cake in the shape of a hat.

JB

Well, I guess I am entitled to also be able to add some sparks here once I was there too... ; )

While David (Newman) was actually the first in the line to become what REDCODE is, Graeme Nattress ('man of plugins') is the maths wizard behind to fulfill the rivalry.

David had the tech as well he was more targeted to give a solid meaning to the masses mantra when sold his Cineform to GoPro.

Amazing technology from genius hands used in the Multiple Academy Awarded Slumdog Millionaire, as for instance, when REDCODE was still in its infancy to say it pretty straightforward.

Jim (Jannard) started his project in his mind along the last century's end, even though, he had hired the best man Jarred in that late 2005 from dvxuser webmaster to be RED chief and help him to finish the whole camera concept a few months before that NAB announcement the year after.

A 2K cinema camera converted later to a 4K acquisition device after all, when David was effectively focused to bring 4K editing as a workflow to life.

Followed by this (golden) pair of contributors usually bashed by the customary suspects inside the 35mm realm; CML, cinematography forums and so on...

 

Hope this helps to clarify a bit such part of the History of Digital Motion Picture,

E :- )

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Just like the MFT version of the BMCC that BMD did. DUMB MFT mount as a way to adapting to other mounts.

One of the reasons I like the BMPCC more than the original BMCC is the BMPCC had an active MFT mount, as it is nice to use a Panasonic lens now and then on my BMPCC. 
 

11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Red has been building cameras for going on almost 20 years now.

Name one camera that RED sold 20 years ago. 

 

 

11 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Your beloved Kinefinity is one of the spinoffs thanks to Red.

A mighty long stretch to claim that!! No more so than BMD, or AJA, or Z Cam, or many others. 

 

7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Like I said I had an order for one probably back in 2006.

2006 is closer to a decade ago than two decades ago. 

 

7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I finally gave up.. It was that bad on delays. I needed a camera then, not one 2 years later. I ended up just giving up on the project and never revisited it.

Am curious, what did you end  up going with instead? Back then that is. 

 

[Emanuel]

David, beyond... Don meant a dozen years ago or suchlike, more than a decade, eleven years to be more precise ;- )

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, tupp said:

Not sure if most shooters (nor even many camera manufacturers) understand the significant advantage of having such a shallow mount.

 

I agree that many camera manufacturers also just don't "get it". 

As we've seen with the URSA Mini being only in EF (or PL/B4), but no mirrorless mount option (like BMD was very smart to do so with the BMCC! I'd never buy a BMCC EF, not even for US$500).

And again with Panasonic with the EVA1 in only EF mount, not even using their own MFT mount! wtf

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, tupp said:

I would not say that Kinefinity is a "spinoff" of Red.  The only thing that those two brands have in common is a boxy design of no particular novelty and the use of common lens mount plates (which are configured much more advantageously on the Kinefinity models).

Arguably the F5/F55 are very similar in this area as well, with a "boxy design" (but a bit longer, to have more built in) and a swappable front mount (thanks to their FZ mount).

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Am curious, what did you end  up going with instead? Back then that is. 

 

I went back to what I knew the best. A Sony HDW-F900R CineAlta ENG camera. A friend of mine made me a deal on a pair of them I could not resist from his rental stock. Same camera that Shot Star Wars 1. Every rental house in the world bought 10 of them figuring they could rent them till the cows come home, which, well they did. If it was good enough for George Lucas well it was good enough for Bob LoL. By then they were getting long in the tooth and they were cheap in a sense. I think I paid 11 grand for the pair if I remember with total kits thrown. lot of hours on them but they are built to last. He even threw in a Sony Studio monitor. Pretty much turn key. I had tripods and lighting. I had one beat up playback machine for the tapes no one wanted it, it was one of those 50 pound units TV studios used. God I hated that thing moving it. Think I paid like 800 bucks for it. I did my editing at the local TV station. Old friend of mine that worked there would pretend like it was station footage and I got it for free at times! They were still using the format. Hell they still were using Beta SP a bit.

I was only doing local TV ads with it so it worked out fine at 24fps 1080p HD with the extra card in it. Slo Mo was interlaced on it but they was not something I did a lot. It made me some damn good money and looked Pro as hell, which it was. So I used them as A and B cameras at the same time often. That was my main problem was I really needed a matching pair of something for easy editing. Editing was not too hard as it was only 15, 30, 1 minute spots. So you didn't have much footage to edit, but you might have to do 20 takes LoL. Some people sucked ass on at hitting their spots and doing lines, really bad. Jesus LoL. Some of them you could not shut them up! It ain't a 5 minute Ad LoL. It was pretty easy with good repeat customers. Went quick. Fast good money. Setups, tear downs were the main pain in the ass about it though. That got old quick. But I had it down to a science. I never did it at home or in a studio. it was at their locality. It looks a lot more genuine like that.

Really the Red probably would not have worked because of at the time only RED CF, no Red Mags at the start. So no long takes using that then, and I was not really sure what I was gong to use for a B cam. I sure could not afford two whole Red One kits that's for sure. So things worked out I guess.

I sort of gave up the whole video thing a few years later. I bought out a Excavating company and put all my money in that.  I grossed Millions and made thousands LoL. I had 2 million dollars worth of equipment at one time, and I had planned to pay it all off and sell it, and retire with hey, 2 Million bucks cash. Well a Heart Attack at 50 stopped that from happening. 18 hours a day, 7 days a week does that to you. So Plan B. Well plan D by that time. Oh Well such is life.

[IronFilm]

24 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I went back to what I knew the best. A Sony HDW-F900R CineAlta ENG camera. A friend of mine made me a deal on a pair of them I could not resist from his rental stock. Same camera that Shot Star Wars 1. Every rental house in the world bought 10 of them figuring they could rent them till the cows come home, which, well they did. If it was good enough for George Lucas well it was good enough for Bob LoL. By then they were getting long in the tooth and they were cheap in a sense. I think I paid 11 grand for the pair if I remember with total kits thrown. lot of hours on them but they are built to last. He even threw in a Sony Studio monitor. Pretty much turn key.

I dunno what was normal prices was back then, but that feels like a darn good deal to me! To get a pair of F900R for $11K.

[tupp]

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Red Camera was started in 1999.

According to an August 2008 Wired article, Jannard first got the idea to make a camera when he couldn't use the files from his Sony HDR-FX1 (which first appeared in late 2004).

 

 

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

https://www.teledynedalsa.com/en/news/newsroom/dalsa-origin-footage-featured-in-first-international-real-time-collaboration-on-4k-digital-cinema-content 

It was September 28, 2005 when they first show footage from it.

Dalsa was showing footage from their working 4k raw prototype at the 2003 NAB.

 

The event that you linked is not the first time footage from their camera was shown -- it is "the first international real-time collaboration on 4k digital content," whatever that means.

 

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

At the same time Red showed there camera. Maybe not footage but.. 

According to the Wired article linked above, Red achieved "first light" with a prototype in August of 2006.

 

Sorry, but Dalsa significantly preceded Red and all others in the 4K raw race.

 

 

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Sure I can look back at what You call mistakes and make a new camera that sort of corrects that..

I didn't call anything a "mistake."

 

 

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

But Since they use an oversized m4/3 sensor  in their 4K cameras that Had to make it shallow. 

Not sure if the "effect" automatically follows the "cause" in this scenario.

 

However, it is my understanding that the Terra uses the same KineMount as the other Kinefinity cameras.  So, making the E-adapter work on on those other cameras probably isn't an insurmountable challenge!

 

In contrast, to enable an E-mount on the ≥S35 BMD or Red cameras, one would have to use a hacksaw.

 

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

If they wanted they can maake any mount they want by redesigning the Camera. I don't think Red, or Arri, or Panavison, BMD is going to do that anytime soon.

I agree with you that most of the manufacturers that you named are not going to make a ≥S35 cinema camera with a shallow mount anytime soon.  That's a shame, because it would be very easy (and inexpensive) for them to add such versatility to subsequent camera lines.  I am afraid that most of those camera companies are guided by ignorance, greed and hubris.

 

On the other hand, I have no doubt that Panavision would create an E-mount DXL within a week, if an ASC guy asked for it.

 

By the way, I was incorrect in saying that the Red cameras and the Kinefinity cameras were similar in that they both used lens mount plates -- Red does, Kinefinity doesn't.

 

 

14 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Just to be clear, the E mount option on Kinefininty is a DUMB mount as far as I know. No Iris control etc. 

You can't actually use native E mount lenses on there, but it's an intermediate mount for adapting to many others. 

Not sure if this is correct, as the Kinefinity E-mount adapter has conspicuous electronic contacts, as does the Kinefinity mount on the Terra.

[kye]

3 hours ago, Tone1k said:

Why does what the Pocket 4k 'looks like' matter in the slightest? 

If the images are good and it's ergonomically well designed, I couldn't care less what it 'looks like'. 

I just don't get it, sorry. 

If you're using it like a traditional cinema camera then its appearance doesn't really matter (everything looks like a cyborg when it's rigged up lol), but if you're not using it that way then sometimes a cameras appearance can matter.

I shoot home videos in places people are ok with you shooting home videos but not 'pro' videos, and if the camera looks 'pro' then you run the risk of getting hassled.

Basically, other people make judgements about what your intentions are and where the footage might go from what type of shooter you are, which they judge from the equipment.  
If you're shooting in dangerous places then a pro looking camera might get you robbed, but a pocket one might not (people deliberately make their cameras look beat up or old when shooting in high-crime poverty-stricken areas for this purpose), if you're shooting an event and your equipment looks pro maybe people will be uncooperative with being filmed in the hope you will pay them, which they wouldn't do if it was an iPhone or P&S, if you're shooting your kid in the park and the camera looks pro the security guards and council workers who aren't cops but wish they were and act like it can assume you're shooting a commercial project with actors instead of shooting your family and hassle you for permits and make you leave.  Even if you're shooting a low-budget piece in public the larger your rig the more people in the background are going to stare at the camera as they walk past, but wouldn't as much if you looked like a parent or a tourist.
When I visited the Vatican they had high security and wouldn't let any tripods in, and didn't seem to care about my pocket-sized mirrorless camera, but if I had a VENICE or maybe even C200 I bet they would have hassled me for filming permits, and saying "I'm just a hobbyist" wouldn't get around that kind of situation.  Of course, a Venice or C200 would be overkill for a hobbyist, but people see a 5D as a "pro camera" because for photography it is, so there's a risk of someone seeing your tiny little video camera and thinking it's a pro looking stills camera.

If you're shooting for a professional purpose then having a professional looking camera isn't a problem, it's when it doesn't match your purpose that problems can come in.  

Lots of people shot hand-held travel films with the Pocket 1, so there is a segment of people that like IQ but want to use it incognito on unofficial shoots.

[IronFilm]

52 minutes ago, tupp said:

However, it is my understanding that the Terra uses the same KineMount as the other Kinefinity cameras.  So, making the E-adapter work on on those other cameras probably isn't an insurmountable challenge!

hahaha!

Anyway, fun fact: I believe even Kinefinity's earliest cameras used the KineMount

54 minutes ago, tupp said:

On the other hand, I have no doubt that Panavision would create an E-mount DXL within a week, if an ASC guy asked for it.

For this have to applaud Sony for getting it right and making in making their new VENICE with an E mount built in! :-o

(even though a small part of me is sad as this signals the end has come for FZ Mount :-/ )

55 minutes ago, tupp said:

By the way, I was incorrect in saying that the Red cameras and the Kinefinity cameras were similar in that they both used lens mount plates -- Red does, Kinefinity doesn't.

I guess "technically" you're wrong. 

But a sub mount like KineMount or FZ mount actually is a better/faster design to use in the field. 

 

57 minutes ago, tupp said:

Not sure if this is correct, as the Kinefinity E-mount adapter has conspicuous electronic contacts

Nope, native Sony lenses won't work:

 

Quote

Attention: it does not support lenses which need protocol from camera, like SONY G series lenses, though the current E mounting adapter has electronic contacts. There would be trade-in plan with new adapters if new adapters support these electronic lenses in the future.

http://www.kinefinity.com/shop/k2e/?lang=en

Rather it is designed for use with the massive wide range of adapters for E mount and the many tasty manual lenses for E mount, such as Veydra primes or Fujifilm zooms:

 

Quote

. The E mounting adapter by Kinefinity features a breech-lock rotating counter-clockwise to lock, like Kine EF mounting adapter. The cine locking way fits video/cinematography system naturally.

It starts a new world with affordable high-end quality: more and more cine lens manufacturers are delivering affordable E-mount lenses with very high quality, like Fujifilm MK18-55, MK50-135 and more 3rd party Cine lenses.

Since E mount lenses and the mount itself are very compact natively, the system is in the right trend of lightweight/small world: drones, rigs, gimbals and stabilizers.

Awesomely it is a locking E mount like on the FS7mk2 and VENICE!

Imagine how great it would be if only more manufacturers did this, how would you like to use an URSA Mini Pro or Panasonic EVA1 with Fujifilm MK18-55, MK50-135 zooms or Veydra primes? 

You get a sense of how truly tiny the Terra body is when you see it next to the already small Fujinon zoom, the lens looks pretty big in comparison!

[Tone1k]

2 hours ago, kye said:

If you're using it like a traditional cinema camera then its appearance doesn't really matter (everything looks like a cyborg when it's rigged up lol), but if you're not using it that way then sometimes a cameras appearance can matter.

I shoot home videos in places people are ok with you shooting home videos but not 'pro' videos, and if the camera looks 'pro' then you run the risk of getting hassled.

Basically, other people make judgements about what your intentions are and where the footage might go from what type of shooter you are, which they judge from the equipment.  
If you're shooting in dangerous places then a pro looking camera might get you robbed, but a pocket one might not (people deliberately make their cameras look beat up or old when shooting in high-crime poverty-stricken areas for this purpose), if you're shooting an event and your equipment looks pro maybe people will be uncooperative with being filmed in the hope you will pay them, which they wouldn't do if it was an iPhone or P&S, if you're shooting your kid in the park and the camera looks pro the security guards and council workers who aren't cops but wish they were and act like it can assume you're shooting a commercial project with actors instead of shooting your family and hassle you for permits and make you leave.  Even if you're shooting a low-budget piece in public the larger your rig the more people in the background are going to stare at the camera as they walk past, but wouldn't as much if you looked like a parent or a tourist.
When I visited the Vatican they had high security and wouldn't let any tripods in, and didn't seem to care about my pocket-sized mirrorless camera, but if I had a VENICE or maybe even C200 I bet they would have hassled me for filming permits, and saying "I'm just a hobbyist" wouldn't get around that kind of situation.  Of course, a Venice or C200 would be overkill for a hobbyist, but people see a 5D as a "pro camera" because for photography it is, so there's a risk of someone seeing your tiny little video camera and thinking it's a pro looking stills camera.

If you're shooting for a professional purpose then having a professional looking camera isn't a problem, it's when it doesn't match your purpose that problems can come in.  

Lots of people shot hand-held travel films with the Pocket 1, so there is a segment of people that like IQ but want to use it incognito on unofficial shoots.

I'm pretty sure that when people criticise the P4K's looks, it's not because it looks 'too pro'. They just don't like the look of it and call it 'ugly'. Like it matters. 

I wouldnt give any style point to the Red Epic, Alexa Mini...... Etc. 

[kye]

55 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

I'm pretty sure that when people criticise the P4K's looks, it's not because it looks 'too pro'. They just don't like the look of it and call it 'ugly'. Like it matters. 

I wouldnt give any style point to the Red Epic, Alexa Mini...... Etc. 

In that case I have no idea!  lol

[John Brawley]

8 hours ago, Emanuel said:

 

Jim (Jannard) started his project in his mind along the last century's end, even though, he had hired the best man Jarred in that late 2005 from dvxuser webmaster to be RED chief and help him to finish the whole camera concept a few months before that NAB announcement the year after.

 

Maybe you forgot that Ted Schilowitz was one of the the first guys that Jim hired ? And was nominally the 2IC. Aka “Red Ted” ? Land was later and it was a good few years before he would take over from Jim.

Ted left after after a few years.  

JB

[webrunner5]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I dunno what was normal prices was back then, but that feels like a darn good deal to me! To get a pair of F900R for $11K.

Well he had paid for them about 10 times over on rentals. And you can the rapid deprecation on them and get a 1/3 or more of your money you paid for them back in 3 to 4 years. And he was a good friend of mine. I had bought and rented a lot of stuff from him before. So he got me a few times also.

[Emanuel]

3 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Maybe you forgot that Ted Schilowitz was one of the the first guys that Jim hired ? And was nominally the 2IC. Aka “Red Ted” ? Land was later and it was a good few years before he would take over from Jim.

Ted left after after a few years.  

JB

Thanks for the heads-up!

Indeed. You are right : ) My bad. Especially when I had the chance to personally meet him in Rome, trade good laughs and enjoy his companion eight years ago where I could bring with me about 5% of the people present in the RED event they organized there with the finest help of Corrado Silveri.

Ted who Jim brought from AJA was rather relevant, even though I tend to point Jim-Jarred as the double-decker train. I'd favour to see Ted as the vertice of a triangle to build the company culture Jim dreamed from scratch in that distant 1999 year as some records say. I only started to be connected with him and that venture (with Jarred, since a year earlier) from 2005 on.

BTW I wish Ted all the best at Paramount (E :- )

[John Brawley]

20 hours ago, mercer said:

@John Brawley sorry for the OT but  we just finished watching the end of the first season of The Resident and I really enjoyed the visuals. I loved the handheld work... what kind of rig were you using again?

Also as far as props go... how realistic is the production? In the last episode, the story line called for a Dacron graft for the aortic valve repair... my GF had an aortic tear repaired a decade ago and has a Dacron graft... she was curious if that was a real prop of the graft?

Also I know you said you shot it in 1080p but Fox broadcasts 720p... did you guys downscale the 1080p to 720p for delivery, or does Fox take care of that?

Thanks for the notes.

A great deal of The Resident is shot handheld with an Ursa Mini Pro and APO Hyperprimes from SLR Magic. We rig it in what I call “football” mode.  Body, wooden camera cheese plates, Dbox, MDR, battery, lens and side handle.  

I try to keep it as small as possible. Attcahed are a couple of shots I was operating on a pilot in Chicago a few months ago.

A lot is also shot with a minimally rigged micro camera, WC cage, self pulling with a 10mm SLR Magic lens and a 5” VA for monitoriing on an arm.  Idea being to keep it all very small.  There’s a picture here showing the way I work that rig here mid-take.  It allows me to get the camera inside the surgical feild and very intimate.

We work really hard on making the medical stuff as real as possible. It’s a real prop in that case.  Most of the extras in surgery scenes are realy life OR nurses and surgeons.  We have surgeons as consultants and we make a lot of prosthetics to be story specific.  

We have to take some liberties though, usually for time.  I mean it’s a 47 min TV show

I recall with the scene you’re talking about that graft would normally take about an hour to install and sew.  Mina gets it done in a few seocnds ?. The whole procedure would take a few hours.  

So we try to get the spirit right and we try to be very explicit and accurate with the medical depictions. We still get. alot of medical people flaming the show for not being “right” but usually they’re more upset with the way we depict the shortcomings and failings of the US medical system ?

We shoot, edit and master in 1920.  Fox does the downconvert.  You can get 1920 versions from other stremaing services though.

JB

[Jim Giberti]

16 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

You and JB are both crazy LoL

In this strange new world I guess actual facts are seen as crazy to some.

Oh well.

16 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

And I believe in the tooth fairy.

I'll be sure to send you a quarter next time you lose one.

[webrunner5]

Just now, Jim Giberti said:

In this strange new world I guess actual facts are seen as crazy to some.

Oh well.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

[Jim Giberti]

13 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Graeme Nattress ('man of plugins') is the maths wizard behind to fulfill the rivalry.

 

Graeme did/does great work. I remember when he first got recruited for the team.

7 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one

But you understand the difference between an opinion and a verifiable fact right?

Like you just learned in this thread.

The lesson is - don't be name calling and claiming knowledge when a bit of listening and learning will cure all of that.