John Brawley Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 Do we really and truely honestly all believe that the exact same sensor is being used in these cameras ? The X7, E2, GHx, P4k... It’s a rhetorical question. Which means I know the answer I’m just asking it here publicly... And why does it even matter. Even if they ARE the exact same sensor. Every camera manufacturer will get different results and we learn NOTHING from these kinds of theoretical sensor discussions. Look at the previously mentioned CIon / BMD 4K / Aperture images. Are they the same ? Look at digital Bolex, who used the KAF / KODAK senors. Are they the same images as the Ikonoscope / Leica / Olympus E series cameras that also used the same sensor family ? Just because they share the same sensor or sensor linage or it comes form the same factory, it’s almost meaningless because the company making the images form that sensor have to do so much customising, calibrating and processing of the image, it becomes irrelevant other than the specs we already know... Let’s just look at the pictures instead of obsessing over the specs.... JB IronFilm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 58 minutes ago, John Brawley said: Let’s just look at the pictures instead of obsessing over the specs.... JB What pictures? Ok, now that that's settled... back to obsessing over the specs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannah Miller Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 As much as two cameras with the same sensor doesn't indicate that the images will look the same, you can generally get an idea of what dynamic range is like. Camera manufacturers aren't stupid these days and if there was a way to squeeze out more DR out of the sensor they'd likely all be using it. Color science is another issue entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrgl Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 16 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said: you can generally get an idea of what dynamic range is like. Disagree. The chips added by the camera manu determine how well the signal is processed: FPN removal and other denoising implementations determine how many usable stops a camera has. camera =/= only sensor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Brawley Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 35 minutes ago, DBounce said: What pictures? Ok, now that that's settled... back to obsessing over the specs? Soon... JB kye and Trek of Joy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannah Miller Posted August 5, 2018 Share Posted August 5, 2018 27 minutes ago, andrgl said: Disagree. The chips added by the camera manu determine how well the signal is processed: FPN removal and other denoising implementations determine how many usable stops a camera has. camera =/= only sensor That's true. But you get a general idea of how much there is and the distribution of shadow/highlight DR. Some cameras may have more FPN than others, but you can lift up the shadows and at least see what's there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joek Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 Not surprising, but interesting that they answered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannah Miller Posted August 6, 2018 Share Posted August 6, 2018 29 minutes ago, Joek said: Not surprising, but interesting that they answered. I don't know if i believe that though as color is also determined by the sensor too. It's not like they'll magically get good colors similar to the dual-gain 4.6K just by using "Gen4 color science." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 45 minutes ago, Joek said: Not surprising, but interesting that they answered. Of course it is likely to be unanswered before the camera is even released! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Savannah Miller said: I don't know if i believe that though as color is also determined by the sensor too. It's not like they'll magically get good colors similar to the dual-gain 4.6K just by using "Gen4 color science." This makes me wonder what the architecture of 'colour science' is inside a camera. Does anyone know exactly how sensors are implemented? I figure that it could be one of these two scenarios: Scenario 1: Sensor gives RAW readout -> image is processed according to colour profile / image settings / codec -> file is output Scenario 2: Sensor is configured to give 'tuned' RAW readout -> image is processed according to colour profile / image settings / codec -> file is output If we look at what Magic Lantern does for Canon, the RAW files look quite Canon-ish. Does that mean that scenario 2 is the case? My impression is that making a sensor that can get 'nice skin tones' by changing the RAW electro-chemical properties of the photo sites would be almost impossible but maybe I'm wrong. Either way there's pretty powerful options for adjusting the image, so they've got a fighting chance of doing an impressive job matching them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannah Miller Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 Scenario 2 is correct because sensors on their own have levels of customization. On top of that, things like Blackshading and cooling further make a difference in the noise and dynamic range of the sensor. Color science and quality of the image is also subjectively chosen, and I believe the dual-gain sensors naturally have better color due to the higher bit-depth. I could be completely wrong about the dual-gain sensors having nicer color, but that could be the reason the Alexa has always been ahead of RED in that area. Either way, the FGPA does play a role in color science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Savannah Miller said: Scenario 2 is correct because sensors on their own have levels of customization. On top of that, things like Blackshading and cooling further make a difference in the noise and dynamic range of the sensor. Color science and quality of the image is also subjectively chosen, and I believe the dual-gain sensors naturally have better color due to the higher bit-depth. I could be completely wrong about the dual-gain sensors having nicer color, but that could be the reason the Alexa has always been ahead of RED in that area. Either way, the FGPA does play a role in color science. Cool. The more control they have over these things and the better they are at colour the closer they should be able to get in matching colours between cameras with different sensors. With tools like Resolve, if you have time and some dedication you should be able to get the look you want from most cameras these days. Matching in a multi-camera setup requires a higher skill level, but I've seen youngsters on YT match many cameras passably well in a very short period of time, using only the LGG controls, and if you're willing to dive into colour checkers you can dial things in pretty quickly if you do a bit of homework about how the colours differ beforehand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savannah Miller Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Yeah but the idea that they will match completely just because they're gen4 is probably not true. RED cameras cost 10x more than Blackmagic and have higher sensor rejection rates, yet their cameras do not match. kye and IronFilm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Stores here are reporting stock is expected first week of next month. Just in time for my birthday then. ? Would've been nice to see some footage/reviews before ordering though... webrunner5, Trek of Joy, JordanWright and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 18 hours ago, Cinegain said: Stores here are reporting stock is expected first week of next month. Just in time for my birthday then. ? Would've been nice to see some footage/reviews before ordering though... Just their past timeline for September from NAB back 4 months now, I guess. Unfortunately, this won't happen, I'm afraid. Or we had already seen the first footage so far. Keep the hype up until a new update late August or even along September... with the first bytes of imagerie to come then, I bet. : -) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinegain Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Q3 was already very vague. So I'm sorta hoping they aimed for last month with it being pushed back realistically to september. Sure hope they are not going to push it beyond that. There's only this one place I could find that expects stock at distributor to come '09.11.2018'... now that would... be a bummer. So I'm hoping for BM and these other stores to come through with their scheduled plans... Q3 should also be the time the Atomos V starts shipping. Next month should be exciting. But, I know better than to get my hopes up, so I guess we'll just wait and see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 On 8/7/2018 at 9:49 AM, Savannah Miller said: I don't know if i believe that though as color is also determined by the sensor too. It's not like they'll magically get good colors similar to the dual-gain 4.6K just by using "Gen4 color science." Pocket 4K and UMP on Gen 4 match colour-wise very well IMHO. graphicnatured, Z_Cunningham, JordanWright and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonpais Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, CaptainHook said: Pocket 4K and UMP on Gen 4 match colour-wise very well IMHO. Do you work for Blackmagic or something? ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainHook Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 1 minute ago, jonpais said: Do you work for Blackmagic or something? ? Yes. In my signature - "**Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**" kye, Jonesy Jones and graphicnatured 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 6 minutes ago, CaptainHook said: Yes. In my signature - "**Any post by me prior to Aug 2014 was before i started working for Blackmagic**" Cool Beans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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