Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Bioskop.Inc]

1 hour ago, Trek of Joy said:

My copies of Tok were soft until about f/4, especially on the wide end. I wish the focus throw was a little longer too. But the CA drove me nuts, so I ultimately moved on. The shot you posted looks good, the issues I had don't show as much.

You make it sound as if you have to stop down the camera loads to get a sharp picture, but to f4 it's only one stop! And you've got to remember it's an oldish lens without all the modern coatings. I've never worried about CA, to me it's like complaining about Moire & Aliasing, just a waste of time - people are too often obsessed with absolute perfection instead of just getting the shot. But it certainly has that Angenieux look, which isn't for everyone. Don't ever try the original as it'll leave you sobbing mess.

[Snuff]

Camera: BMPCC
Lens: Tokina 28-70mm f/2.8 + Metabones SpeedBooster XL 0.64 (Nikon F)
Filters: B+W UV-IR Cut, Haida PROII-S Variable ND, Tiffen Black Pro-Mist 1/4
ProRes HQ, Impulz LUT BMDFilm Kodak Vis3 50D 5203 (DP) FC

[Bioskop.Inc]

1 hour ago, Snuff said:

Camera: BMPCC
Lens: Tokina 28-70mm f/2.8 + Metabones SpeedBooster XL 0.64 (Nikon F)
Filters: B+W UV-IR Cut, Haida PROII-S Variable ND, Tiffen Black Pro-Mist 1/4
ProRes HQ, Impulz LUT BMDFilm Kodak Vis3 50D 5203 (DP) FC

Really is a great combo - BMPCC & Tokina. I'm Sure the P4K will look great with this lens.

Just hate it when people think you should judge a lens by how well it shoots wide open, utter rubbish!

[webrunner5]

17 minutes ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

Just hate it when people think you should judge a lens by how well it shoots wide open, utter rubbish!

Well that is pretty much the main reason you pay the big money. To have a fast as heck, deep DoF lens. If you want to close it down there are plenty of good cheap f2.8 lenses that look good wide open. Easier to make them good at that aperture wide open.

[jbCinC_12]

8 hours ago, Snuff said:

Camera: BMPCC
Lens: Tokina 28-70mm f/2.8 + Metabones SpeedBooster XL 0.64 (Nikon F)
Filters: B+W UV-IR Cut, Haida PROII-S Variable ND, Tiffen Black Pro-Mist 1/4
ProRes HQ, Impulz LUT BMDFilm Kodak Vis3 50D 5203 (DP) FC

Well @Snuff that's awesome, I got the same one, too.  It's a very nice lens, maybe not the genuine f2.6/2.8, but just as good nevertheless.  It might be a dream to behold for the new P4K.

[Trek of Joy]

10 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

You make it sound as if you have to stop down the camera loads to get a sharp picture, but to f4 it's only one stop! And you've got to remember it's an oldish lens without all the modern coatings. I've never worried about CA, to me it's like complaining about Moire & Aliasing, just a waste of time - people are too often obsessed with absolute perfection instead of just getting the shot. But it certainly has that Angenieux look, which isn't for everyone. Don't ever try the original as it'll leave you sobbing mess.

I never get why people call someone out when they share their experiences with a camera or a lens. Its just a lens and I'm just pointing out my experiences. I want to get the shot without having to do a lot of work in post to fix it. Having ugly purple highlights around your subject - especially in someone's hair, or surrounding a tree, or filling up a backlit shot is a deal breaker for me, hence why I said "YMMV" -- because its not something that matters for everyone. I didn't find it to be particularly sharp either and the posted samples demonstrate that, or maybe that was just my copies. For me the Nikon was better, sharper, more contrast and a better overall lens. Just like lenses that need heavy in-cam corrections, some don't care, I don't like it. Its just a lens, its really not that big of a deal. 

9 hours ago, Bioskop.Inc said:

Just hate it when people think you should judge a lens by how well it shoots wide open, utter rubbish!

I like lenses to be good throughout their range, but I'm a one-man-band and always shooting high mp stills with video when someone is paying for my services. The Tok/Ang isn't up to 42mp stills. And I prefer opening the aperture to bumping ISO for cleaner files or when faster SS's are needed, so performance wide open is something I want. So my needs are obviously different for yours, no big deal. As always YMMV.

Sorry to take the P4k thread OT with a silly lens debate. Back to more Pocket talk.

Cheers

Chris

[BenEricson]

14 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

For the group that wants the og mojo/magic/whatever, 2 things. First, I really believe you'll be able to get something closer to that if you want it. Use vintage lenses, possibly a desharpening filter, and grade the way you want it. Second, why not just buy a BMPCC or BMMCC? Many of these folks say they don't even care about 4K. Why would need a new version of the old camera? One can be had for very inexpensive on the used market, the other can be rigged anyway you like it. Point being, you already have your camera.

I believe BM's goal with this camera is for it to be closer to the UMP than the original Pocket, and for good reason. URSA Micro would have probably been a better name. 

Is it really closer to the URSA Mini though? I see both sides of the argument, but the BMP4K looks closer to the GH5 than the original pocket camera. The original pocket camera looks closer to the Alexa than the Gh5 does... So? Can't wait to test it, but if I liked this look I would already own the Gh5 at this point. Am I missing something?

Market: We want a 4K Pocket Camera!

BMD: Here ya go!

Market: Not Enough Mojo.

[Anaconda_]

@John Brawley Perhaps you've already answered, but having used the camera and seen the footage first hand, what's your opinion on the lack of mojo comments? How do the files look and feel OOC?

 

[jonpais]

That Tokina + Speedbooster looks great if you're watching in 240p.

[seanzzxx]

On 8/31/2018 at 2:42 AM, John Brawley said:

I think we're just nostalgic.

 When the Ursa Mini 4.6K first started shipping there were many many threads that were EXACTLY the same as some of the complaints on here....  Users complaining that the UM4.6K didn't have the same mojo / look / feel as the 4K sensor which at that point was in the Production camera, the Ursa and the Ursa mini 4K.

This is a new sensor.  

It has the same chef's in the kitchen, working with new ingredients.

Spend some time with the images, look at the RAWS when they're available and learn to get the most from it.  THEN come back and post about what you like or don't like.  But grading from a downloaded 264 and then writing it off as being inferior is a bit premature and simplistic.

JB

 

 

[Nrubloc]

[jpfilmz]

10 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Is it really closer to the URSA Mini though? I see both sides of the argument, but the BMP4K looks closer to the GH5 than the original pocket camera. The original pocket camera looks closer to the Alexa than the Gh5 does... So? Can't wait to test it, but if I liked this look I would already own the Gh5 at this point. Am I missing something?

Market: We want a 4K Pocket Camera!

BMD: Here ya go!

Market: Not Enough Mojo.

All these lack of “mojo” comments are really silly.  People will be able to color grade it to match just about any look they want. 

[Kieran]

19 minutes ago, jpfilmz said:

All these lack of “mojo” comments are really silly.  People will be able to color grade it to match just about any look they want. 

'Mojo' for me anyway isn't about the grade. I love the BMD colour science shown in the examples. 

[jonpais]

Probably unrelated, but I beta test LUTs quite often, and after working with one I like for months, sometimes my reaction to a new one is, ‘ugh, this one’s too light, too dark, green in the shadows, too difficult to expose for, too much work in post, etc.’; but after playing around with it for a while, I discover it actually is an improvement.

[John Brawley]

9 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

@John Brawley Perhaps you've already answered, but having used the camera and seen the footage first hand, what's your opinion on the lack of mojo comments? How do the files look and feel OOC?

 

I like the pictures. A lot. 

This camera will probably replace the micro cinema camera for me as it’s not much bigger and is much easier to work with. 

I didn’t feel as strongly about the 4K production camera / Ursa because they were limited, principally by dynamic range.

I have a deep affection for the 4.6K sensor and have shot nearly daily withnit since before it was launched. I know it very well. 

This pocket camera will integrate and sit very nicely alongside the 4.6K. It’s already a closer match than the micro for me without having really tested it in an A/B scenario. 

I was a little worried about it having less DR Than the 4.6K but I think the other clips  show some great examples of what this sensor can do. “Nature” was incredibly tricky material to shoot as anyone who’s been in that situation before would know and it was unfair to see it being derided.  

Those that did so only reveal their own inadequate understanding of what those shots reveal. 

I can think of a million other scenarios I would have rather done but these sequences were specifically produced to illuminate what the camera can do in specific situations. 

What im almost more excited about is the unification that Gen 4 brings. As I mentioned earlier, it’s pretty much the same people at BMD that brought you the first camera working on this camera.

They’ve learned a lot (and so have I) and I think Gen 4 is really strong. I wish this and extended video would get rolled out wide already as I think half the issue I see with users of BMD products is a lack of knowledge in grading. 

Now BMD do have perhaps the greatest colour correction tool on the market BUT they don’t make it easy to get to a great result without a little arcane knowledge.

Even I often run into issues when working by myself and I see extended video being a great step in addressing that shortcoming. There’s no point in talking about how great you can make images shot RAW if you don’t know how to do it and can’t easily or intuitively find a way to do so. 

With regards to the 4k Pocket. 

Its a genuine low light contender. I was really impressed at what a useable picture it produces with little lighting.

I’m laughing at those that said it’s overlit. I mean a 500w chimera dimmed to almost nothing so the background lighting would still show though the tinted hotel windows is very very low light, much lower levels than the idiots demanding I walk out on the street and light by sodium were demanding.

Again, I laugh when I see comments about how noisy ISO3200 is but I’m guessing those users aren’t aware how much image processing their cameras are doing at high ISOs.  BMD allow you as the user to choose your poison. A very very underrated feature. And like colour correction it’s almost too powerful because users haven’t been instructed to change their expectations, nor how to add noise reduction or sharpening so they can season to taste. 

The best testbfootage will be friends users so the sooner they ship the cameras the better.  Hopefully Gen 4 means there will be less hysteria about its performance and a few will realise there’s no point comparing it to a GHx or a Sony and learn to get the most from what it is good at.

JB

[Myownfriend]

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

Probably unrelated, but I beta test LUTs quite often, and after working with one I like for months, sometimes my reaction to a new one is, ‘ugh, this one’s too light, too dark, green in the shadows, too difficult to expose for, too much work in post, etc.’; but after playing around with it for a while, I discover it actually is an improvement.

This is something that frequently frustrates me even outside of the videography/photography world. People get so set in their ways that they may even choose to use something objectively worse just because they're used to it. It's always good to see that there are people willing to sit down with something and not reject it just because it's different.

2 hours ago, John Brawley said:

This camera will probably replace the micro cinema camera for me as it’s not much bigger and is much easier to work with. 

This is actually surprising to hear. From what I can tell, the Pocket 4K is a little larger than two Micro's side by side, but I guess after rigging up the Micro it very quickly loses it's size advantage.

Actually this reminds me, there's a guy who's a BMD evangelist whose name escapes me at the moment but he's an older gentleman, who was interviewed about the Pocket 4K and said that the final version will be a little lighter (which we knew was the case with the whole carbon fiber thing) but also slightly smaller. Do you know if there's any truth to the final version being slightly smaller or did he misspeak?

[Jim Giberti]

Really great to read all of this John.

And I'm really glad you feel the way you do about Gen 4 and specifically extended video mode.

Really looking forward to producing with both.

Did you use the new Gen 4 LUT for viewing? And if so, how accurate was it?

 

Tanx

[John Brawley]

2 hours ago, Myownfriend said:

This is actually surprising to hear. From what I can tell, the Pocket 4K is a little larger than two Micro's side by side, but I guess after rigging up the Micro it very quickly loses it's size advantage.

Actually this reminds me, there's a guy who's a BMD evangelist whose name escapes me at the moment but he's an older gentleman, who was interviewed about the Pocket 4K and said that the final version will be a little lighter (which we knew was the case with the whole carbon fiber thing) but also slightly smaller. Do you know if there's any truth to the final version being slightly smaller or did he misspeak?

It's the same size.

Here's some examples of scenarios for me where using a micro that will be replaced by a p4K once I can get one.

JB

 

 

2 hours ago, Jim Giberti said:

Really great to read all of this John.

And I'm really glad you feel the way you do about Gen 4 and specifically extended video mode.

Really looking forward to producing with both.

Did you use the new Gen 4 LUT for viewing? And if so, how accurate was it?

 

Tanx

Yes I've been on GEN 4 for a while with the Ursa's and of course the P4K and use them for monitoring.  It's VERY hard to go back to using VIDEO.

JB

[leslie]

i like the specs like everyone else seems too, but sample footage seems to be a bit thin on the ground, please correct me if that's changed lately. i think i will be waiting till its available before i buy and i'll be waiting for the forums collective expert analysis  . colour me pragmatic if you like. i have to say i like the price at the moment it seems reasonable and cheaper than some other options.  i am curious if science has done any research into what the eye can resolve at what distance. if i'm being honest i cant see much difference between dvd and blueray  with out a magnifying glass and that sony is about a meter from the end of my bed.not sure what 4k will add to the mix i'll also add i turned 51 and now wear glasses to help at times. perhaps i'm more interested in being entertained rather than the technical hoops being jumped through . i am abit concerned that  if  eyes cant resolve or benefit from a 1080 or 4k picture or 8k then its all a bit of a wank for our ego's is  it not ? and we are not enriching ourselves but someone else's pockets  perhaps. i also wonder if my new laptop will handle 4k probably not, my old desktop definitely won't. so additional expense is required maybe.  my background is .... well actually there's not much background apart from a canon 60d a gopro 4 silver and gopro 6 black that i like to play with you may laugh manically at this point if that's your desire.i'm a rookie/newbie as you have probably guessed and haven't done much research on what else is available either to be honest but considering this bm4k beast is about to be released perhaps it will be worth it and i wont have to research further    i'd like to try a make a few videos and i have a few thoughts that i would like to try they might only make a few mates giggle or go viral but i wouldn't get my hopes up. i like the gopros but they do add a distinct look to the mix so i think one of these bm4k might be the ticket if the quality is up there and its easy to adapt the m42 pentax and canon fd lenses i have acquired, time will tell no doubt. lets see how it pans out. it is interesting to note that there's 174 pages of interest but the bm4k hasn't arrived yet, i wonder how many pages will get generated after it arrives...

[anonim]

5 minutes ago, leslie said:

i like the specs like everyone else seems too, but sample footage seems to be a bit thin on the ground, please correct me if that's changed lately. i think i will be waiting till its available before i buy and i'll be waiting for the forums collective expert analysis  . colour me pragmatic if you like. i have to say i like the price at the moment it seems reasonable and cheaper than some other options.  i am curious if science has done any research into what the eye can resolve at what distance. if i'm being honest i cant see much difference between dvd and blueray  with out a magnifying glass and that sony is about a meter from the end of my bed.not sure what 4k will add to the mix i'll also add i turned 51 and now wear glasses to help at times. perhaps i'm more interested in being entertained rather than the technical hoops being jumped through . i am abit concerned that  if  eyes cant resolve or benefit from a 1080 or 4k picture or 8k then its all a bit of a wank for our ego's is  it not ? and we are not enriching ourselves but someone else's pockets  perhaps. i also wonder if my new laptop will handle 4k probably not, my old desktop definitely won't. so additional expense is required maybe.  my background is .... well actually there's not much background apart from a canon 60d a gopro 4 silver and gopro 6 black that i like to play with you may laugh manically at this point if that's your desire.i'm a rookie/newbie as you have probably guessed and haven't done much research on what else is available either to be honest but considering this bm4k beast is about to be released perhaps it will be worth it and i wont have to research further    i'd like to try a make a few videos and i have a few thoughts that i would like to try they might only make a few mates giggle or go viral but i wouldn't get my hopes up. i like the gopros but they do add a distinct look to the mix so i think one of these bm4k might be the ticket if the quality is up there and its easy to adapt the m42 pentax and canon fd lenses i have acquired, time will tell no doubt. lets see how it pans out

I don't know why, but you sentences and intonation as of type of "flow of consciousness", reminded me to Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury"  But yes, it seems to me that it has some, even not-so-loose connection with artistic type of shooting with BM pocket...