Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Andrew Reid]

8 hours ago, Shirozina said:

As of yesterday I'm a P4k owner! Here are a couple of initial observations;

1. Battery door is faulty, flops open
2. Battery gets stuck
3. Lens mount has a worrying amount of play.
4. Battery life is rubbish
5. Massive barrel distortion on native M43 lenses
6. Screen unusable outside
7. 1TB USB C drive "is a must" (add £600 because it needs to be Samsung T5 or equally fast / approved)
8. Add cage
9. Add power base or v-lock battery
10. Add monitor

Not so Pocket now and not so £1000 camera now is it?

Solutions for Blackmagic when the do the next camera

• Use multiple batteries in a vertical grip style form factor and allow USB C power while camera is running
• Do better Q/A on the lens mount. No more reports of infinity focus being off. No more reports of play and wobble.
• Support digital correction of native M43 for ProRes recordings
• Put a built in EVF in it
• Put a screen on it that is bright enough or daylight use
• Put an articulated joint on said screen
• Raise price to £1500, to save us the hassle of having to double the camera price to make it usable and bulk it up.
• Keep the body as light as possible.

[Anaconda_]

57 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

• Battery door is faulty, flops open

My battery door is fine. The person who's door was faulty had it replaced within a day.

• Battery gets stuck

I had 1 battery got stuck once and it's never happened since.

• Lens mount has a worrying amount of play.

Not for me, in fact its less than on my Panasonic camera.

• Battery life is rubbish

Yup, as advertised. The real issue is the battery meter being so unreliable. Maybe fixed in an update, we’ll have to wait and see.

• Massive barrel distortion on native M43 lenses

I only have 1 MFT lens, and it's a cheap one, but I have no distortion or CA from it.

• Screen unusable outside

I found it fine to work with and it's been sunny here.

• 1TB USB C drive "is a must" (add £600 because it needs to be Samsung T5 or equally fast / approved)

This is totally dependant on your shooting style - I'm more than happy with 128gb Cfast and 256 SD, in total that cost me €250 at the most. I do also have a 500gb T5, but will only use that for long form shoots.

• Add cage

Nice, but not necessary. I feel like people who want a cage on this, will often buy a cage for any camera they get... though I might be wrong.

• Add power base or v-lock battery

Same issue as your battery life comment, just reworded.

• Add monitor

Depends what your shooting. I'm happy with it for most of what I shoot.

I do get there should be better quality control for many things on this camera, and it's far from 'perfect'. But a lot of these comments, not just from Andrew seem quite nit picky. For example, complaining you need expensive media is a result of having such a big codec. If you don't want the codec, there's other options with cheaper media. If you want RAW and ProRes out of the camera, expensive media is the price you have to pay.  That said, as soon as BRAW hits, this whole issue is out the window.

Same with the M43 lens distortion, if you're buying this for the an unprocessed image from the sensor, don't complain that it's not been processed. Granted, for ProRes recordings it could be nice, but then people would complain the ProRes looks so different form the RAW. I like that they're almost indistinguishable until you hit heavy grades.

Andrew, you mention the battery door in almost every comment about this camera, but as far as I know, only 1 person here has had an issue with it, and it was solved by BMD or the reseller quickly. It just doesn't seem to be an issue, just one faulty unit. 

Then adding cages and monitors - that's 100% optional and is far from a requirement to make it work. 

Anyway, I don't wish to rant or persuade people one way or the other about this camera. I'm enjoying using it, I'm enjoying editing it, and I'm enjoying riging it up and stripping it down. 

[JordanWright]

BM fixed the battery door issue. No issues with the new one. I think it was just a replacement of the door component itself. I agree that maybe QC should have picked up on it but BM were very quick at sorting the issue. 

[Turboguard]

24 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

I do get there should be better quality control for many things on this camera, and it's far from 'perfect'. But a lot of these comments, not just from Andrew seem quite nit picky. For example, complaining you need expensive media is a result of having such a big codec. If you don't want the codec, there's other options with cheaper media. If you want RAW and ProRes out of the camera, expensive media is the price you have to pay.  That said, as soon as BRAW hits, this whole issue is out the window.

Same with the M43 lens distortion, if you're buying this for the an unprocessed image from the sensor, don't complain that it's not been processed. Granted, for ProRes recordings it could be nice, but then people would complain the ProRes looks so different form the RAW. I like that they're almost indistinguishable until you hit heavy grades.

Andrew, you mention the battery door in almost every comment about this camera, but as far as I know, only 1 person here has had an issue with it, and it was solved by BMD or the reseller quickly. It just doesn't seem to be an issue, just one faulty unit. 

Then adding cages and monitors - that's 100% optional and is far from a requirement to make it work. 

Anyway, I don't wish to rant or persuade people one way or the other about this camera. I'm enjoying using it, I'm enjoying editing it, and I'm enjoying riging it up and stripping it down. 

Yeah, I had the camera before most and I have written about my experience, which has been amazing. But NO ONE ever quotes me in here. And Andrew, yes, he just keeps talking about that battery door, I switch my batteries a lot cause I keep the camera on while testing so burn through them pretty quickly (yes it drains your batteries if you have third party, listen to AaronChicago or what his name is, OFFICIAL CANON is the way to go for maximum running time) so I open and close that battery door A LOT with ZERO problems. 

 

I’ve used the camera ALOT outdoors and yes the screen gives of glare but I can still use it without problem! I also shoot handheld, and haven’t felt a need to “rig” it up for more money, I bought a half cage with handle because I am used to shoot with ANY camera, that style. Getting a holder for T5 was just a plus as I had it hanging out (and let me tell you, with zero problems) before and it was just ugly. 

 

Everyone complaining and raising concerns are people that DOES NOT have the camera. 

[Shirozina]

58 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

1. Battery door is faulty, flops open
2. Battery gets stuck
3. Lens mount has a worrying amount of play.
4. Battery life is rubbish
5. Massive barrel distortion on native M43 lenses
6. Screen unusable outside
7. 1TB USB C drive "is a must" (add £600 because it needs to be Samsung T5 or equally fast / approved)
8. Add cage
9. Add power base or v-lock battery
10. Add monitor

Not so Pocket now and not so £1000 camera now is it?

Solutions for Blackmagic when the do the next camera

• Use multiple batteries in a vertical grip style form factor and allow USB C power while camera is running
• Do better Q/A on the lens mount. No more reports of infinity focus being off. No more reports of play and wobble.
• Support digital correction of native M43 for ProRes recordings
• Put a built in EVF in it
• Put a screen on it that is bright enough or daylight use
• Put an articulated joint on said screen
• Raise price to £1500, to save us the hassle of having to double the camera price to make it usable and bulk it up.
• Keep the body as light as possible.

1 - battery door does not flop open. I just removed it as it serves no purpose.

2 - Not had any battery sticking issues and was just pointing out a possible reason for it with other users.

3 - Maybe just my body as it's not been reported by others

4 - Battery life is not rubbish and It's just as expected.

5 - Barrel distortion on M43 lenses - that's a Panasonic and Olympus fault.

6 - All screens are unusable outside without a shade unless they are very high nit 

7 - Don't need to add a 1tb drive as I already have one and it was less than £200  and BTW a 1TB T5 is about £250 which is cheap, cheap storage compared to V90 SDXC or Cfast.

8  Cage - nah

9 - Add on power - already have it with an Atomos Powerstation.

10 - Monitor - already have one

So yes it is a £1000 cinema camera (FFS) as I haven't spent a penny more on it an it's ready to go. (once I make a screen shade)

Now how about your suggestions for a £1500 camera.....

More batteries - yes if you have a higher nit screen you will need them. 

No idea what others are saying about infinity issues but that's not a design feature you need to pay for is it?

In camera lens distortion correction means substandard resampling as it's speed over quality so I'd rather do it afterwards. Not a feature I'd pay for in a 'cinema camera.'

EVF - articulated I suppose well that would be nice but the cost will be significant.

Articulated screen - yes. Bright = more battery drain and heat

Raise the price to £1500 - i.e give them away. I reckon £3000 easy for that spec and 2-3 years away. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Turboguard]

Also people saying “oh this is a must, and this is a must” and then people on here quoting and saying this like “that’s fucking crazy, I thought this would be an amazingly easy camera to use”, like what the hell people! We all have different ways of using the camera. I don’t shoot/use my equipment like everyone else of you. E.g it doesn’t apply to all of us. If they came out with a paintbrush for a painter and he was like “I don’t like the strokes of the squirrel hair” do you think every other artist in the world would have gone bonkers and screamed hell at this new brush?!

 

It’s become a witch hunt in here. It’s sad because a lot of you are tech enthusiasts like myself and your clouding your minds for no reason. Be happy this technology exists, it’s a wonderful camera.

[Anaconda_]

21 minutes ago, Turboguard said:

 

Why not use the Velcro on the cable? Slip it under the strap hook thingy on the corner of the camera and then the drive doesn’t dangle. 

Although I guess that’s not an issue for you anymore. 

[Andrew Reid]

?

[Kisaha]

I sometimes rig up even my NX500 with a riser, external monitor, rails, matte box e.t.c 

Haven't used any hybrid/dSLR that its monitor is sufficient for our Mediterranean weather, and all are a lot less than 5". A few days ago I had to use an a6500 (on a Crane 2) and a7sii in 4K/Slog3 on a ancient Greek theater under the worst scorching sun. Is the P4K that terrible (genuine question)?

Most best selling cameras have terrible battery life. Fuji is traditionally terrible, and Sony (best selling APS-C and full frame mirrorless) until the A9 and A7iii have/had laughable - or tragic - battery life, at best. 

Also, noone other camera can record on a USB-C drive flavors of raw. How that is a minus in any imaginable way?!

A lot of cameras have QC issues at first (plenty of examples from all brands, including Nikon, Sony, Olympus, we all remember one or two per brand), if the battery door is the only problem they have, and for 1% or less, then it is great news! In anycase, I never pre-ordering anything.

The most stupid issue with this camera (which I do not care, because I won't use it anyway) is the huge crop for high speed recording. Just stupid.

I would love such a camera with an improved XC15 form factor and ergonomics. It is just too wide for no particular reason.

I am going to buy a camera for video use between February and April 2019. As it is, P4K is my best bet.

[BTM_Pix]

I'm about to deploy my £40 DIY EVF 

[Andrew Reid]

How's the Bluetooth LE stuff going?

[BTM_Pix]

With regard to the lens corrections.....

I'm playing devil's advocate here because I haven't got native MFT lenses that would particularly cause a problem (aside from the cheap collapsible wide zoom in the picture above which is not a bad lens for the original pocket or a GX85 etc but which I know from the LS300 isn't exactly going to benefit from more sensor area to play in).

But....

BM have let themselves in for a few problems when all of their literature features this :

 

As I say, I'm purely playing devil's advocate here but I definitely think they will have to address it either with an update or at the very least a clear statement of which lenses will suffer.

Fixing it in Resolve can't just be the panacea either when they are also promoting a straight out of camera workflow.

 

10 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

How's the Bluetooth LE stuff going?

"Interestingly" is one way of putting it.

Frustrating would be another but I'll get there.

Its interesting now having spent some time with it to work out what it does and doesn't need functionality wise.

I think the physical interface its got is quite decent to be fair but it definitely needs a remote option. 

Why they took the LANC port off it so that people could at least start and stop a recording while its on a gimbal or a rig is a mystery to me.

It would also help with the photo function, which I actually think is pretty decent but is compromised considerably by the shutter button being too recessed (at least on mine) which means you are inducing movement in the body when you press it which brings the obvious problem with its low shutter speed.

[Turboguard]

1 hour ago, Anaconda_ said:

Why not use the Velcro on the cable? Slip it under the strap hook thingy on the corner of the camera and then the drive doesn’t dangle. 

Although I guess that’s not an issue for you anymore. 

Yeah, it was just an extreme example here. I had it secured if I was moving around obviously before I got the cage. Point was I didn’t need to pay even more money to be able to use it. And I know you know that, just re-iterating for other members. Point is, the camera is fully functional out of box with no other need than storage and lens. People who say other, sadly have an expensive way of using their skills (or maybe they don’t have any skills and need to pay for it to look somewhat good?)

[Scott_W]

2 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

1. Battery door is faulty, flops open

Not on mine it doesn't

1. Battery gets stuck

Nope. Not had that either.

1. Lens mount has a worrying amount of play.

Not with MFT lenses - any play I've had has been with my cheap Viltrox speed booster. 

1. Battery life is rubbish

I'll give you that. But I'm getting a solid 40 minutes with each battery. Predictable, and you can rig a more robust solution. 

1. Massive barrel distortion on native M43 lenses

I've been shooting at 12mm today, which is as wide as I usually go, and had no distortion. 

1. Screen unusable outside

I've been shooting all afternoon with it. In sunlight. It's no worse than any other camera screen

1. 1TB USB C drive "is a must" (add £600 because it needs to be Samsung T5 or equally fast / approved)

I've been shooting on the Sandisk Extreme Pro SD cards today. Perfectly find for UHD ProRes 422 which is perfectly fine for most of what I do. The T5 is useful to have in the bag, and is the cheapest option for the amount of bitrate it churns out. Maybe you're not used to so much data?

1. Add cage

I will - thanks. 

1. Add power base or v-lock battery

Already had one - like most people who will buy this. 

1. Add monitor

Already had one. like most people who will buy this. 

Not so Pocket now and not so £1000 camera now is it?

Solutions for Blackmagic when the do the next camera

• Use multiple batteries in a vertical grip style form factor and allow USB C power while camera is running
• Do better Q/A on the lens mount. No more reports of infinity focus being off. No more reports of play and wobble.
• Support digital correction of native M43 for ProRes recordings
• Put a built in EVF in it
• Put a screen on it that is bright enough or daylight use
• Put an articulated joint on said screen
• Raise price to £1500, to save us the hassle of having to double the camera price to make it usable and bulk it up.
• Keep the body as light as possible.

Seriously, you should pick one up. If only to test it - the interface is a joy to use and the image quality is excellent. It's a film makers tool, not a hybrid camera, an SLR that does good video. It's just a box with pretty decent sensor and a hole in the front. 

[BTM_Pix]

12 minutes ago, Jn- said:

They may not be part of the MFT consortium?  If they are then they should have access to other MFT manufacturers lens settings corrections, distortion, CA, vignetting.  The over-reliance of Oly and Pana on software corrections for their lens designs means that non Oly and Pana lens, with or without adapters are probably better corrected and will have fewer issues.  Opticalimits, photozone, gives distortion values with and without corrections.  Any mft lens starting at say 12mm have real issues without autocorrection.

They joined in 2013 

http://www.photographydailynews.com/2013/01/kodak-end-black-magic-join-micro-four-third/

Hopefully as the cameras are out there in greater numbers they'll have more feedback to get a clearer picture (no pun intended) of which lenses are going to be problematic and where to go from there, even if it is just a directive of "Lens xyz is not recommended" etc.

I think the most obvious ones are the wides but from my experience with native MFT lenses on the LS300 there may be a few surprises with other lenses in terms of edge performance if people are used to using them on GH5, GX80 etc

The situation with adapted lenses looks like a different - and worse - sort of mess because of the number of variables involved with the different permutations of FF and APS-C lenses going on numerous different types of speed booster and I don't envy BM trying to test that.

 

[BTM_Pix]

With regard to the batteries getting stuck, there have been a few reports on BMCUser of genuine Canon batteries getting stuck that turned out not to be genuine Canon batteries after all, including someone who bought 3 from a very well known camera store.

As an FYI, someone there has posted this video about how to spot the difference between the genuine article and the very convincing fake ones.

 

[Turboguard]

I think I’ll invest in at least 2 real ones before better solutions arrive. I do wonder if there’s any chance you could use a USB C to DC. 

[BTM_Pix]

15 minutes ago, Turboguard said:

I think I’ll invest in at least 2 real ones before better solutions arrive. I do wonder if there’s any chance you could use a USB C to DC. 

Its charge only through USB but its certainly a decent option to have if you are out as you can always find something or somewhere with a USB outlet to put a bit of juice in.

I've ordered one of these until the BM cable pack is available.

Its £35 which is not much more than the cost of the dummy battery thats included which, once you have that, there are obviously a lot of other options to power it off Sony batteries etc.

I'm definitely looking forward to sporting the very fetching belt pack.

http://amzn.eu/d/5OuA1wt

[Turboguard]

1 minute ago, BTM_Pix said:

Its charge only through USB but its certainly a decent option to have if you are out as you can always find something or somewhere with a USB outlet to put a bit of juice in.

I've ordered one of these until the BM cable pack is available.

Its £35 which is not much more than the cost of the dummy battery thats included which, once you have that, there are obviously a lot of other options to power it off Sony batteries etc.

I'm definitely looking forward to sporting the very fetching belt pack.

http://amzn.eu/d/5OuA1wt

I meant USB C from my battery pack to DC in to P4K. What are you going to use when you get the cable kit from BMD?

[Andrew Reid]

Nice find on that - got to be worth a try for 30 quid!

Better to have the wire going into the base of the camera. Too easy to knock the DC cable out of the side of it?