Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[drm]

1 hour ago, TurboRat said:

Yeah I think WB is on auto

In that video, it seemed like the ISOs didn't match very well between the GH5s and the BMPCC4K at the lower end. It seemed like up to around 6400 the BM was darker. Also, his brightness levels as he changed ISOs was all over the place.

In my casual testing, my GH5s cameras seem to be a fair bit less noisy at the same ISO settings than my P4Ks. I will have to revisit this on my cameras after seeing his video.

This most surprising thing that I have found after getting the P4Ks is that they don't fit my bags. I am having to completely rethink my bags and storage systems to fit the P4K cameras   The added width really does make a big difference in this regard.

[mercer]

I didn’t watch that comparison video but I wonder if you have the P4K, do you guys feel you need the GH5s? Or if you have the GH5s, do you need the Z-Cam E2... since they all share the same sensor?

Obviously, I get the different feature set but it seems the GH5s gives you about 80-90% of ProRes HQ from the P4K. If you need Raw, that’s a different story, but I assume the majority of folks that own the P4K, do not shoot Raw.

[Anaconda_]

As you say, it depends on your usage and what you want out of a camera. I don't feel the need for a GH5s, however if I did have the GH5s I might pine for internal ProRes and RAW. 

It's also not about RAW for me. I wanted to shoot ProRes because the files off both my GX80 and LS300 were driving me nuts. In my experience no edit suite can play JVC's 422 files at all, and I was also having some issues with h264 realtime playback, even if the files are untouched. I'd imagine the GH5s would give me similar results. On the same machine, I can grade the ProRes files and playback in full quality as if it's nothing.

Sure you can convert the files to ProRes, but that adds a lot of time to the workflow. Yes you can also record externally, which I did on the JVC but that's more gear to carry around.

For me this camera is fantastic in the field, the only thing I need to carry that the other cameras don't need is extra batteries... in fact, the same batteries I'd have used in the recorders I mentioned. Then when I get home to edit, it's like I'm dreaming. 

Having used it almost daily since October, I'm fairly convinced I have the best camera available for my requirements, for everyone else, that may vary.

 

[mercer]

Being an FCPX user, ProRes is definitely the most interesting aspect to me. With that being said, I have zero need for 4K right now, so even though the camera is a steal, for a second camera, a Micro would/could make more sense for me. But then the allure of that Dual ISO sensor is appealing. Has anyone shot and shared any 1080p ProRes? In my brief search for it, I haven’t found much 1080p from the P4K, especially in 24p. 

[Anaconda_]

I could film some stuff for you this weekend. Let me know what you'd like to see.

The Dual ISO is incredible. I used to use ISO only if my lens couldn't open up any further and I couldn't add lights. Now I can use it to keep my iris exactly how I want it no matter the circumstances

[mercer]

I have a folk horror short I’m writing, so any nature footage in the woods/forest would be helpful... if you live near one? But anything would be good. 

By having some experience shooting with the Pocket and Micro, I always would stick to the native ISO, so I imagine having the two native ISOs could be very helpful to get a clean, consistent image?

I recently acquired a small set of Nikkor lenses... the 35mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4. Since both lenses have the same open aperture and the same amount of aperture blades, it will help me when I stop down the lenses within the same scene and having that dual native iso sounds like a dream for the darker horror movies I have coming up.

But I’m so content with my current camera set up, that I am probably a long ways off before I do a camera upgrade... or a camera sidegrade in this instance. 

In some ways, I am more intrigued by the Z-Cam E2 than the P4K, so I will probably wait to see how that develops first. And then there’s the 5D4 ML development... so many choices. And to be honest, the X-T3 has impressed me the most of all available cameras this year, so as a second camera, that may make more sense for me. In the end, compared to 6 years ago when I got my first camera... we are spoiled.

[thebrothersthre3]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

I have a folk horror short I’m writing, so any nature footage in the woods/forest would be helpful... if you live near one? But anything would be good. 

By having some experience shooting with the Pocket and Micro, I always would stick to the native ISO, so I imagine having the two native ISOs could be very helpful to get a clean, consistent image?

I recently acquired a small set of Nikkor lenses... the 35mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.4. Since both lenses have the same open aperture and the same amount of aperture blades, it will help me when I stop down the lenses within the same scene and having that dual native iso sounds like a dream for the darker horror movies I have coming up.

But I’m so content with my current camera set up, that I am probably a long ways off before I do a camera upgrade... or a camera sidegrade in this instance. 

In some ways, I am more intrigued by the Z-Cam E2 than the P4K, so I will probably wait to see how that develops first. And then there’s the 5D4 ML development... so many choices. And to be honest, the X-T3 has impressed me the most of all available cameras this year, so as a second camera, that may make more sense for me. In the end, compared to 6 years ago when I got my first camera... we are spoiled.

The Fuji really is a nice camera. I have to say the Braw out of the Pocket 4k is very tempting, that extra highlight recovery is what I thirst for?

[mercer]

Just now, thebrothersthre3 said:

The Fuji really is a nice camera. I have to say the Braw out of the Pocket 4k is very tempting, that extra highlight recovery is what I thirst for?

I’ll believe that the P4K gets B-Raw when I see it. I won’t buy a camera based on what I hope it may end up having.

[xzobinx]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I’ll believe that the P4K gets B-Raw when I see it. I won’t buy a camera based on what I hope it may end up having.

I have to say i'm little annoyed by the fact that it took so long for them to roll out braw. It's understandable that they need time to make it right but that 12:1 braw is oh so tempting 

4 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

For me this camera is fantastic in the field, the only thing I need to carry that the other cameras don't need is extra batteries... in fact, the same batteries I'd have used in the recorders I mentioned. Then when I get home to edit, it's like I'm dreaming. 

Having used it almost daily since October, I'm fairly convinced I have the best camera available for my requirements, for everyone else, that may vary.

 

Same here. As someone who enjoys the creativity in the editing room, I love what this camera brings to the table. Post processing is one reason I didn't go with xt3. Lovely camera and IQ but that HEVC codec is a system killer 

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

I’ll believe that the P4K gets B-Raw when I see it. I won’t buy a camera based on what I hope it may end up having.

C'mon, I follow your point but... WTH it is BMD! What's your skepticism on them? Why that?

[drm]

5 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

As you say, it depends on your usage and what you want out of a camera. I don't feel the need for a GH5s, however if I did have the GH5s I might pine for internal ProRes and RAW. 

It's also not about RAW for me. I wanted to shoot ProRes because the files off both my GX80 and LS300 were driving me nuts. In my experience no edit suite can play JVC's 422 files at all, and I was also having some issues with h264 realtime playback, even if the files are untouched. I'd imagine the GH5s would give me similar results. On the same machine, I can grade the ProRes files and playback in full quality as if it's nothing.

Sure you can convert the files to ProRes, but that adds a lot of time to the workflow. Yes you can also record externally, which I did on the JVC but that's more gear to carry around.

For me this camera is fantastic in the field, the only thing I need to carry that the other cameras don't need is extra batteries... in fact, the same batteries I'd have used in the recorders I mentioned. Then when I get home to edit, it's like I'm dreaming. 

Having used it almost daily since October, I'm fairly convinced I have the best camera available for my requirements, for everyone else, that may vary.

 

I have the GH5, GH5s, & BMPCC4K cameras. We do lots of events, frequently in low light, and always in 4K. I love the GH5 & GH5s combo, but it gets *really* time consuming having to encode the video for Final Cut. I have terabytes of footage on a weekly basis to process. Being able to record ProRes in camera was one of the reasons that I purchased several of the BMPCC4K cameras.

However, there *is* a solution for this issue now for the GH5/GH5s. Just get an Atomos Ninja V for the GH5/GH5s. You then get a larger screen and you get Prores recording.

But, your GH5s setup costs now costs ~$3k-$3,500 each, the Prores 422 files are even larger than the 400mbps All-I files from the GH5s, and you are running a big rig (compared to the BM).

The BMPCC4K really is an amazing package deal, despite its issues. We haven't yet fully switched away from the GH5(s), but I imagine that we will do so soon.

[mercer]

19 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

C'mon, I follow your point but... WTH it is BMD! What's your skepticism on them? Why that?

I’m not here to knock BMD. I think they have done amazing things for indie filmmaking and I have owned a few of their cameras and have loved them. But they aren’t always the most reliable company based on promised specs or deadlines. The global shutter in the Micro comes to mind, as well as the missed release deadlines. Even with the P4K, they promised a September release, which they hit with... a dozen or so cameras being shipped?

With that being said, from a business standpoint, B-Raw in the P4K makes zero sense. Why on earth would they include a feature in their lowest model camera that they also include in their highest model? And since B-Raw was released the same week the first P4Ks shipped, then why didn’t they ship the cameras with B-Raw. It’s not like B-Raw was invented the week before.

With that being said, I really do hope the P4K gets an upgrade but I wouldn’t buy the camera on that basis alone.

But I am starting to warm up to the camera some after seeing your guy’s results. 

[Emanuel]

I am still astonished with this camera, a game changer not only but also because of the ease of use for sure. Let alone IQ. Impossible to ignore : ) Is there 50x of price difference?

 

[mercer]

I’ve never used either camera but based on comparison videos of X camera vs. the Alexa in the past... yes there is a difference.

[Emanuel]

A 50x difference...? LOL Coming from a writer/author to operate in the indie realm, ML lover no more than me, that's very funny to say the least : ) Sorry mate, I don't want to look like harsh with a forum buddy : D Just sayin' though ; ) It is what it is : -)

[Jonesy Jones]

In the past the law if pareto stated that 80% of results come from 20% of causes. I've seen this ring true so many times and with tech its more like 90:10. Now with the Alexa vs P4K we have a cost difference that's more like 98:2. So is the P4K 98% the camera at 2% the cost? Seems like it could be. Also considering that the P4K beats the Alex's in other specs like size, low light, media and peripheral costs, and of course price, the argument could be made the P4K is the better camera. Pair it with the right lens and then definitely. The 18-35 continues to impress. 

I'm out of town but my P4K is waiting for me at home. Can't wait to verify all the hype.

[mercer]

14 hours ago, Emanuel said:

A 50x difference...? LOL Coming from a writer/author to operate in the indie realm, ML lover no more than me, that's very funny to say the least : ) Sorry mate, I don't want to look like harsh with a forum buddy : D Just sayin' though ; ) It is what it is : -)

Oh I hear you and get your point. But a huge difference in price isn’t necessarily a valid point for a visual comparison. You can do the same comparison with any cheap camera and ask the same question. It’s a gotcha comparison designed for a specific answer. 

For instance, I could do a similar comparison with a D5500 vs the Alexa. The D5500 has about 11 stops of DR... if I had to guess... but it has very clean shadows. Then I could say, “obviously the Alexa wins but it is a $65,000 camera vs. a $500 camera...”

Clearly in that video, the Alexa wins. No question.

With that being said, I felt the guy did a good job and it shows the strengths of the P4K... but he could have done that without the clickbait “vs” nonsense.

[Emanuel]

There should be distinct products, of course. My pleasure is checking how close they are. This is truly sweet. Other than that, clickbait and nonsense rule the internet world these days : -D

[canonlyme]

20 hours ago, mercer said:

Being an FCPX user, ProRes is definitely the most interesting aspect to me. With that being said, I have zero need for 4K right now, so even though the camera is a steal, for a second camera, a Micro would/could make more sense for me. But then the allure of that Dual ISO sensor is appealing. Has anyone shot and shared any 1080p ProRes? In my brief search for it, I haven’t found much 1080p from the P4K, especially in 24p. 

I agree with you, the micro is very appealing at a lower budget. 

[drm]

8 hours ago, canonlyme said:

I agree with you, the micro is very appealing at a lower budget. 

I think that one of the things that people miss is just how capable the BMPCC4K is for the price. This camera opens up opportunities for content creators because of the features that it offers vs. the price point. With my setup (camera, cage, 1TB T5, extra batteries, etc.) I probably have around $2k in each rig.

Lots of people start out with inexpensive gear and move up. Your progression might be something like Sony A6300, then maybe Sony FF (A7 III) or other SLR hybrid camera. Once you have sufficient work (and $), you may transition to more traditional video cameras like C200, FS5, EVA1, etc. These bigger cameras are going to cost $5K -$10K each after you get them rigged out. You may even only have one (big) A cam and then a cheaper B cam due to budget constraints.

The BMPCC4K gives you the ability to have an A, B, and maybe even a C cam for roughly the same money as one of the traditional mid-tier cinema cameras, but gives you higher-end features like RAW recording and good dynamic range. I think that many people would be better served with a 2 or 3 cam setup of BMPCC4K's instead of 1 big A cam and a cheaper B cam. I run a 3 cam setup on almost every shoot. Having 3 matched cameras lets you have redundancy, makes matching footage easier, and has many other advantages.