Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Emanuel]

4K is a bitch. Certain stuff without necessary care mentioned by Dennis @deezid for example here if/when shot on 4K becomes truly better from 1080p outcome. 35mm film projection is lower resolution, as for instance.

 

Take a look on this thread:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?59036-Resolution-of-35mm-film-and-70mm-IMAX-film&s=1226f26dbbd98e6978e23f1094de482d&p=768383&viewfull=1#post768383

That Sir David Mullen's figure by RED tests -- he said something such as IIRC but I recall it as 3.2K as matter of fact. BTW never achieved @ screening room, let's make it clear and such a point.

 

There's still three different links there to address interesting papers to read on topic:

http://www.motionfx.gr/files/35mm_resolution_english.pdf

http://www.tmax100.com/photo/pdf/film.pdf

https://www.healio.com/ophthalmology/optics/news/print/ocular-surgery-news/{8c0eb2a6-586c-4670-a8c4-ad1ad012aad1}/expert-considers-limits-of-visual-acuity-visibility-and-optical-performance-of-human-eye

 

Without mention these both two entries:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?59036-Resolution-of-35mm-film-and-70mm-IMAX-film&p=1839943&viewfull=1#post183994

 

Finally, once again:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?59036-Resolution-of-35mm-film-and-70mm-IMAX-film&p=1840009&viewfull=1#post1840009

 

[StHubbins]

4K isn't a big deal to me EXCEPT... the fact that you can zoom in means every prime is turned into a mini-zoom lens.

And that is awesome.

[Emanuel]

4K is a good club but surely less forgiving.

[kye]

4 hours ago, StHubbins said:

4K isn't a big deal to me EXCEPT... the fact that you can zoom in means every prime is turned into a mini-zoom lens.

And that is awesome.

And whatever you don't crop you're downscaling, which improves the real resolution.  

8K will be great from this perspective too.  Think of it - you'll be able to get real 4K!

[Video Hummus]

2 hours ago, kye said:

And whatever you don't crop you're downscaling, which improves the real resolution.  

8K will be great from this perspective too.  Think of it - you'll be able to get real 4K!

Man, this is why 8K is appealing to me but I don’t want to think what I need to edit 8K footage. CFast and express cards better drop in price a lot in the next 4 years.

Even H265 10bit 8K is pretty hefty and most people will want to shoot in ProRes RAW. 

Honestly—the way we consume media—mostly YouTube or Vimeo with highly compressed h264 or h265 streams on mobile devices, 4K with a 1080p deliverable is still plenty good. 

[dslnc]

14 hours ago, Video Hummus said:

Man, this is why 8K is appealing to me but I don’t want to think what I need to edit 8K footage. CFast and express cards better drop in price a lot in the next 4 years.

Even H265 10bit 8K is pretty hefty and most people will want to shoot in ProRes RAW. 

Honestly—the way we consume media—mostly YouTube or Vimeo with highly compressed h264 or h265 streams on mobile devices, 4K with a 1080p deliverable is still plenty good. 

Braw works really smooth.  Prores for that matter as well. Really happy for the latitude when grading and the lack of macro blocking too.

Resolve is your friend. Otherwise it is hard to get the most out of the camera. Especially with the lack of adobe support for braw.

I was really impressed with the sharpness of cdng raw. A pitty it got axed. Not that I was using it that often. But nice to have the option.

 

 

[osmanovic]

CinemaDNG and 4K is closer to true 4K
BRAW and 4K is about 10% less.

Therefore, 1080p and CinemaDNG is a very good 1080p. So CinemaDNG with 1080p is about as good as BRAW with 4K scaled to 1080p (in terms of sharpness). 

This is our result. We compared both cameras (old and new Pocket).

[Emanuel]

OK those numbers are not to be taken in a literal sense, but I stand what you mean : -)

[majoraxis]

Speaking of CinemaDNG and the Pocket 4k... Can't you just rollback the firmware if you want CinemaDNG on the Pocket 4K?

NOT if you have the latest hardware revision with the new LCD screen.

If you recently purchased a Pocket 4k and it came with 6.2.1 factory installed then you will not be able to rollback the firmware to 6.1 to get CinemaDNG.  I purchased mine new just over a month ago.  It came with 6.2.1.  I was not able to roll back the firmware.

I spoke with Blackmagic and they said that they have switched to a new LCD screen, which is only compatible with 6.2.1 (and higher).  If you have the new LCD BRAW only Pocket 4k you will get a message that says your firmware is up to date.  I did when I tried to install 5.2 or 6.1.  Blackmagic also said that if I were to "force it" (whatever that means?) to go back to 6.1,  I could brick the camera.

Why does it matter?

For many it won't, but for some who want the CinemaDNG's highlight control available in the Camera RAW tab on Resolve that is not offered with BRAW, this will be an issue.  Also, for those who want a higher resolution image compared to BRAW, CinemaDNG was a good option.

5 hours ago, osmanovic said:

CinemaDNG and 4K is closer to true 4K
BRAW and 4K is about 10% less.

 

[drm]

4 hours ago, majoraxis said:

I spoke with Blackmagic and they said that they have switched to a new LCD screen

I must have missed this information. What "new screen"?? What are the differences? Why?

[MeanRevert]

41 minutes ago, drm said:

I must have missed this information. What "new screen"?? What are the differences? Why?

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90870

[majoraxis]

3 hours ago, drm said:

I must have missed this information. What "new screen"?? What are the differences? Why?

I don’t know the differences... I don’t believe there is a functional difference from an operationally standpoint.

I think BRAW looks really good - the issue for me is that Cinema DNG gives you more/different controls over the image/highlights in post than BRAW.  I believe this is due to the fact the BRAW de-mosaic filters in the camera so the highlight are more baked in than with Cinema DNG, which gives you more control over the highlights durning de-mosaic process in Resolve.

The answer is IMHO for Blackmagic to give the end user back control of these image control options in camera.  It’s not ideal, but it’s better than what have moving forward with only BRAW.

This is kind of like how Sony gives you SLOG2 and SLOG3 as a choice and each have a different highlight knee.  I would like BRAW to have a user controlable in camera highlight knee control or highlight control slider as part of the de-mosaic BRAW processing.

An alternative way to do this is to have the pre-BRAW de-mosaic encoding controls settings as a metadata side car paired with each BRAW LUT tm.  You could the highlight response setting of a BRAW file paired with a BRAW LUT that anticipates/incorporates that highlight curve/roll off and other image control settings.  There setting are shown in camera and allow the user is allowed to tweet than so that the could also save them as a side car to use with their own BRAW LUTS.

 

[leslie]

On 5/16/2019 at 2:56 PM, Snowfun said:

Pocket 4k joins The 400 Club.

Blackmagic should add it to their marketing. 

andrew should at least give one away for reaching 400 ?

[Emanuel]

17 hours ago, majoraxis said:

Speaking of CinemaDNG and the Pocket 4k... Can't you just rollback the firmware if you want CinemaDNG on the Pocket 4K?

NOT if you have the latest hardware revision with the new LCD screen.

If you recently purchased a Pocket 4k and it came with 6.2.1 factory installed then you will not be able to rollback the firmware to 6.1 to get CinemaDNG.  I purchased mine new just over a month ago.  It came with 6.2.1.  I was not able to roll back the firmware.

I spoke with Blackmagic and they said that they have switched to a new LCD screen, which is only compatible with 6.2.1 (and higher).  If you have the new LCD BRAW only Pocket 4k you will get a message that says your firmware is up to date.  I did when I tried to install 5.2 or 6.1.  Blackmagic also said that if I were to "force it" (whatever that means?) to go back to 6.1,  I could brick the camera.

Why does it matter?

For many it won't, but for some who want the CinemaDNG's highlight control available in the Camera RAW tab on Resolve that is not offered with BRAW, this will be an issue.  Also, for those who want a higher resolution image compared to BRAW, CinemaDNG was a good option.

 

Indeed! This is crucial! We Blackmagic camera owners must demand they may handle the issue!

[osmanovic]

Honest opinion?

I don't think a new screen is the reason you can't downgrade the firmware. New screen has nothing to do with BRAW or CinemaDNG. Blackmagic Design simply does what they want. The customer is not asked or informed in advance. The customer is condemned to endure the problems with the CinemaDNG patent. BRAW was served to the customer as a sedative tablet and not because it is a better alternative to CinemaDNG.

They can still take pictures in CinemaDNG using the "stills button". And the screen has no problems with that?

[MeanRevert]

Yeah, that screen thing don't make no sense.

[anonim]

1 hour ago, osmanovic said:

Honest opinion?

I don't think a new screen is the reason you can't downgrade the firmware. New screen has nothing to do with BRAW or CinemaDNG. Blackmagic Design simply does what they want. The customer is not asked or informed in advance. The customer is condemned to endure the problems with the CinemaDNG patent. BRAW was served to the customer as a sedative tablet and not because it is a better alternative to CinemaDNG.

They can still take pictures in CinemaDNG using the "stills button". And the screen has no problems with that?

Yes, it is little bit on shame side and how-and-when explanation is, after all, already some sort of BM signature:) All that said, though, output stay impressive...

 

[Avenger 2.0]

1 hour ago, MeanRevert said:

Yeah, that screen thing don't make no sense.

New screen needs new drivers in firmware. If you would downgrade a new screen bmpcc4k to older firmware the screen would stop functioning. Therefore they block firmware downgrade?

[drm]

35 minutes ago, Avenger 2.0 said:

New screen needs new drivers in firmware. If you would downgrade a new screen bmpcc4k to older firmware the screen would stop functioning. Therefore they block firmware downgrade?

I have three P4Ks. I had to return one of mine more than once for screen problems. I believe that it had a defective digitizer. I was eventually given a new camera. I know that other people on here have had a similar issue.

BM most likely swapped the screen for a business reason, like high failure rates on the old one, insufficient supply, etc. A new screen is very likely to require a new driver in firmware. It is likely that the new cameras (with the new screens) don't work with the old firmware because of a driver difference. Could BM have let people know about the hardware revision or update the old firmware to work with the new firmware? Sure, but why? Why would they let people know about the hardware change if the screens are technically similar, but perhaps just from a different manufacturer? BM is certainly under no obligation to let people know about a running change. Companies manufacturing products make running changes during production all the time. 

I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but assuming that BM deliberately changed the screen in order to prevent people from downgrading the firmware is an exceptional reach  If they wanted to stop people from downgrading, they would just follow the lead of Apple and others by signing the firmware and telling the camera to only load approved firmware.

[StHubbins]

I would not at all be surprised if part of the legal settlement with RED was coming up with a way that future cameras could not use the old firmware. It's not much of a settlement if the future users of the camera can still use the forbidden format.

They just should've been up front about it.