Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[webrunner5]

4 hours ago, kye said:

The problem is that everyone speaks from their perspective, and humans are adaptive, and contextual creatures.  

$2 for a cup of coffee doesn't sound like a lot, but to someone in the 1,000,000,000 people living on less than $1 per day income, that would some like a ridiculous luxury.

Considering that most of us can afford hundreds or thousands of dollars to buy camera equipment, and care about things like Dynamic Range and Colour Science, we are all in the vastly deluded minority of people whose concerns seem trivial and frivolous.

Potentially the largest problem this forum has is that the members habitually fail to acknowledge that we are each coming from a different environment, trying to accomplish different things, and have different priorities, and then we howl at each other furiously because of our lack of almost the tiniest bit of perspective.

Very good post. Yeah if you have the skill you can make a movie with a 3 year old Smartphone look better than most people can if you Gave them a Arri Alexa.

And yes, if you are not making lots of money a Canon T2i with the plastic kit lens gets the job done. Heck I still think the original BMPCC is pretty much all a heck of a lot of people into video really need below the Pro level. And this new 4K one, Wow what else you need other than super duper AF, and that is still up in the air on it..

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Well with the 4K BMPCC having Raw in it I am sure it will have more DR than the GH5s. How much, heck who knows. But I would guess an easy 1 stop more. I am more thinking the GH5s really has 12 stops in V Log. So the 13 might be right on the BM.

Here is an article on the GH5s from DPR on DR.  It pretty much thinks it is a bit over 12 stops. I agree that is probably the top.

https://***URL removed***/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-gh5s-review/6

[cantsin]

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well with the 4K BMPCC having Raw in it I am sure it will have more DR than the GH5s. How much, heck who knows. But I would guess an easy 1 stop more. I am more thinking the GH5s really has 12 stops in V Log. So the 13 might be right on the BM.

You definitely win one stop (in the shadows) with BM cameras when you shoot raw and use high-quality (=Neat Video) temporal denoising in post. You don't get that when you shoot ProRes log with the same cameras.

[webrunner5]

Well well we all have to admit as of late the line between "Professional" and "Consumer" have really narrowed. When I was most of you guys age you either worked for a place that did video, or you bought a $200.00 at the time spring powered 8mm movie camera. If you were rich you had a Bolex, or my dream camera, a Beaulieu 4008 ZM Camera. They made beautiful looking cameras. Not too many choices compared to today.

Now with the 4K BMPCC coming out it can nearly compete with rich people on an equal footing. The GH5s is amazing, the Sony A7 mk III is, the ML Canon 5D mk III, Canon C100, on and on. We live in an amazing time for video. It is now down to skill more than gear. The tables have leveled. No real excuse these days to not get the job done.

 

[Damphousse]

40 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Now with the 4K BMPCC coming out it can nearly compete with rich people on an equal footing. The GH5s is amazing, the Sony A7 mk III is, the ML Canon 5D mk III, Canon C100, on and on. We live in an amazing time for video. It is now down to skill more than gear. The tables have leveled. No real excuse these days to not get the job done.

That pretty much sums it up.  Look at DSLRs.  The megapixel race ended awhile ago and body refresh cycles are getting longer and longer and less and less meaningful.

Eventually we will get to peak video and just about any camera will be capable of excellent results.

I sell pictures from my T3i for book covers and national advertisements.  I've beat out pros for projects.  No one and I mean no one is going to look at a book cover and say, "gee, I think this was taken with a T3i".  If I was a pro of course I would upgrade to a better camera for speed, accuracy, and ergonomics sake.  But I'm not expecting to suddenly be taking mind blowingly better pictures.

I am excited about the BMPCC 4k because of the value at the price point.  I also find the files easier to work with as an amateur.  I don't want to fight with sony skin tones or have to light a scene for a GH5.  My skills are limited so I use the tool that gets me nicer stuff with less effort... and at a great price.  Hopefully the BMPCC 4k will continue the Blackmagic tradition.

But really.  We need to stop the pro vs nonpro discussion.  Or at least move it to another thread.  Call the BMPCC 4k whatever you want... I'm probably buying it.

[webrunner5]

Yeah I am buying it also. I don't really think it will be many peoples Only video camera they own, but for the money a person can afford to have one and enjoy some other model or brand they like also. I agree with a few peoples response on here that there will be bargains down the road used for it because of the "let down" some people will have using it.

I doubt it will be as big of a pain in the ass the original BMPCC was for batteries, the LCD screen, on and on, but it will not be a set it Auto camera either!

[kye]

Regardless of if I end up buying one I'm going to benefit from it by forcing myself to consider buying it.

I agree with @webrunner5 and others above that it will disappoint some people and I plan on making sure that isn't me.

I already know that it doesn't meet some of my criteria (mainly stabilisation, AF, fast zooms and a tiltable screen) however the image from the Pocket 1 is so lovely and the promise of ultra-high-quality 4K so enticing that I'm going to use my existing equipment with those limitations, learn the required skills, see if I can make it work for my style of film-making and then read reviews before buying.  Worst case is that I can't live without one or more of the features or it has some unanticipated Achilles-heel and I get an A7III and then learn to grade it to get the look I want (or I get the Canon FF unicorn and instantly die happy).

If @webrunner5 is right that it can't be the only camera you own buy does a lot of what I want I might consider a Pocket 1, perhaps with a small fast prime, as a second camera.  I'm sure that the Pocket 2 regret selling will further reduce the Pocket 1 used price.

Anyone who has a manual camera now, buys the Pocket 2 and then sells it again because of its shortcomings really should have done their homework properly I think.

[Savannah Miller]

12 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Your Crazy LoL. You Do realize they have had 4k cameras since about the beginning, and some of their stuff even has Global Shutters, No rolling shutter problem. Kinefinity has just come out with 90% of their stuff. BMD is not old by any means, but they make Kinefinity look like a startup company, which they are.

No.  Kinefinity released a 4K camera about the same time as Blackmagic and they were doing high framerate 60fps+ WELL before blackmagic was.  It came out in 2014 but was slow to ship similar to the BMPC.  But they also had  a model that released in 2012 called the KineRAW S35 which had a 4K sensor and could record 60fps.

They were an existing camera manufacturer that made astro cameras, and they were way more aggressive in giving features that Blackmagic wasn't.  BUT, they had more fundamental issues with their images that Blackmagic did not.

Blackmagic had in the early days some issues with moire and aliasing due to not having an OLPF on their lower resolution sensors.  When they switched to 4K+ it was less of a problem.  Kinefinity had tons of artifacting when shooting in the various high framerate and "sport" modes that their cameras offer.  Their monitors also had serious lag issues which they still haven't fixed on their newer cams.  But in terms of giving a camera that on paper was supposed to compete with RED cameras, they did it first.

So in the early days when it came to Kinefinity vs. Blackmagic, Blackmagic was the realistic and safer option to buy.  Now though, Kinefinity is offering so much high-end stuff (Kineback W, Small form factor with a Pro lineup of accessories), that they are now putting out something completely different to Blackmagic and they have their own niche.

 

This is from 2012 and it has 60fps, interchangeable lens mount, etc.  I'm pretty sure they had a cinema camera before that.

[Savannah Miller]

Back in 2012, Blackmagic did not have S35 cameras, OLPFs, 3D LUT support, Lens Mounts, 60fps.  A dedicated monitor out as well, dual XLR, Timecode IO, 3D sync, and Wifi too.  This camera was much aggressive and high-end than the original BMCC but with the image, it had noticeably less dynamic range and the color was not as nice.

[jonpais]

An SD card with transfer speeds of 985MB/s and able to hold 128TB of data? They’re coming, but no idea when or for how much. I’d take one of these over the T5 if the price was right. But it probably won’t be!

SD Express

[IronFilm]

22 hours ago, zerocool22 said:

Haha yeah you are right (however I am one the many consumer exceptions that shoot with a UMP)

The UMP sits in an interesting position, I certainly don't think of it as "prosumer" and it has a similar ish price to a FS7 (the UMP could be argued is either cheaper or more expensive than the FS7), however because of the extreme levels of popularity of the Blackmagic Design brand of cameras in the amateur / indie / consumer world, that means "if" any one from that category is thinking of spending a lot more then the BMD UMP is likely to be near the top of their list of cameras to consider buying. 

So I bet the UMP has a higher proportion of "consumer" owners than the FS7, even though they're a similar ish price. 

17 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

BMD is not old by any means, but they make Kinefinity look like a startup company

Huh? I think you don't appreciate how long and deep the rich history of Kinefinity is. 

The  Kinefinity KineRAW S35 and the BMCC both came out at around the same time in the year 2012 iirc

17 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Very good post. Yeah if you have the skill you can make a movie with a 3 year old Smartphone look better than most people can if you Gave them a Arri Alexa.

Not just skill, but you'll need more time and a better lighting crew as well to really get the most out of an old smartphone. 

 

[Savannah Miller]

15 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

The UMP sits in an interesting position, I certainly don't think of it as "prosumer" and it has a similar ish price to a FS7 (the UMP could be argued is either cheaper or more expensive than the FS7), however because of the extreme levels of popularity of the Blackmagic Design brand of cameras in the amateur / indie / consumer world, that means "if" any one from that category is thinking of spending a lot more then the BMD UMP is likely to be near the top of their list of cameras to consider buying. 

So I bet the UMP has a higher proportion of "consumer" owners than the FS7, even though they're a similar ish price. 

Ursa Mini Pro is hands down the best image and features under $10k for professional cinema use.  John Brawley was using them as a smaller camera alongside the Alexa for a lot of shows, and while I do think that while he will probably continue to use them for a while, the Sony Venice is pretty interesting.  The tethered head can get almost Blackmagic micro-like shots, and venice's current size/weight is not too far off from the Ursa Mini Pro.  It also records Prores 4:4:4 as well.

 

 

Ursa Mini Pro is interesting because it's too cheap, which also makes it possibly seem expensive as well.  Sounds weird, but  it's SO CHEAP when in reality its feature set and images can be compared to really expensive cinema cameras.  But because it's priced like prosumer or higher end ENG/cine style camera combos (FS7, EVA-1, C200) it's bigger, heavier, with lesser ISO performance.  And because it lacks autofocus and other convenience features such as smaller recording codecs, it's slightly less practical than those cameras for low-end jobs. 

[sanveer]

19 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Very good post. Yeah if you have the skill you can make a movie with a 3 year old Smartphone look better than most people can if you Gave them a Arri Alexa.

I could agree that smartphones with apps produce superb image with ISO at 50 and 100, and noise reduction shut off (and bitrates at 100 mbps and above). Like on the Cinema 4k app. I with smartphones could push lenses to f.95 and faster. Maybe someone know a way to remove the front lens element and swap it with an even faster element (or remove the black tape on the side of the front lens). 

19 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Very good post. Yeah if you have the skill you can make a movie with a 3 year old Smartphone look better than most people can if you Gave them a Arri Alexa.

I could agree that smartphones with apps produce superb image with ISO at 50 and 100, and noise reduction shut off (and bitrates at 100 mbps and above). Like on the Cinema 4k app. I with smartphones could push lenses to f.95 and faster. Maybe someone know a way to remove the front lens element and swap it with an even faster element (or remove the black tape on the side of the front lens). 

20 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Well with the 4K BMPCC having Raw in it I am sure it will have more DR than the GH5s. How much, heck who knows. But I would guess an easy 1 stop more. I am more thinking the GH5s really has 12 stops in V Log. So the 13 might be right on the BM.

Someone in one of the online forums tested Vlog on the GH5s at 11.63 stops (and HLG at a little above that). Wide dynamic range is mentioned continuously in the literature of the sensor, too. If the GH5 is 13 stops in 12-bit photos, then the GH5s should be between 13 and 14 in 12-bit RAW video. This being the same or similar class of sensors should definitely have over 13 stops. 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, sanveer said:

Someone in one of the online forums tested Vlog on the GH5s at 11.63 stops (and HLG at a little above that). Wide dynamic range is mentioned continuously in the literature of the sensor, too. If the GH5 is 13 stops in 12-bit photos, then the GH5s should be between 13 and 14 in 12-bit RAW video. This being the same or similar class of sensors should definitely have over 13 stops. 

Well I can agree that if it is 11 1/2 or 13.5 both the GH5 and the GH5s are crazy good. There is not a lot they Can't do. But I think the GH5s is a bit too expensive.

I really believe BMD is probably one of the few company's that don't lie about DR stats in their cameras.

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Huh? I think you don't appreciate how long and deep the rich history of Kinefinity is. 

And when could you, other than in China. buy one of their cameras? Hell you can't hardly buy one now! I don't care if they have been in business for 50 years, if you can't get a camera it doesn't exist in my book LoL.

It was like saying Red was in business for years and years. Yeah they were, promising to get it out for like 5 years or more before ONE even shipped. There is a pun in that last sentence. I went through that crap first hand with James Jannard, who by the way is a really nice guy. He was, at the time, WAY too optimistic on his shipping date timeline. But he had a dream and changed the industry forever. Kinefinity ought to kiss Jannard's butt every time they sell one of their copy cat bodies.

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

But he had a dream and changed the industry forever. Kinefinity ought to kiss Jannard's butt every time they sell one of their copy cat bodies.

That is the kind of anti Kinefinity behavior I'd expect on reduser from the red fanboys instead!

There is nothing inherently special about putting a sensor in a box. RED doesn't have a copyright on the form factor. 

And Kinefinity has done their own innovation as well. 

[webrunner5]

If I was James Jannard I would demand 1000 buck royalty for every damn camera body Kinefinity sells. It is a blatant copy. At least make Something different that you could claim you thought about for over 30 seconds in the design stage.I would be embarrassed to say I even own one.

That is the reason it is so cheap. They had no design team cost at all. Anyone that owns one ought to have to go to Confession and tell the priest you are co conspirator of Theft LoL. Some people I tell you what will do anything to save a buck. Even thievery.

Well I am kidding, eh I think, yeah I am....OK I am. ?

 

[sanveer]

Considering the limited number of countries and companies seriously innovating in the filmmaking space, Kinefinity has done what companies with billions in resources haven't.

I am suddenly wondering whether Blackmagic Design and other companies should try and collaborate with Olympus (or pick an engineer or 2 from one of the major player's imaging divisions) and other companies to get autofocus capabilities.

 

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

If I was James Jannard I would demand 1000 buck royalty for every damn camera body Kinefinity sells. It is a blatant copy. At least make Something different that you could claim you thought about for over 30 seconds in the design stage.I would be embarrassed to say I even own one.

That is the reason it is so cheap. They had no design team cost at all. Anyone that owns one ought to have to go to Confession and tell the priest you are co conspirator of Theft LoL. Some people I tell you what will do anything to save a buck. Even thievery.

Wow. I thought your earlier comment was pretty borderline hardcore red fanboyism, but this takes the cake! Even this would be exceptionally rare to see on reduser.net 

Kinefinity doesn't owe them a dime. Neither do they deserve that vitriol. Be specific in what  you're falsely accusing Kinefinity of "stealing" from RED. 

What, are you going to say Arri and Blackmagic Design also owes RED a thousand bucks of royalty per camera as well???

Putting a sensor in a box and putting a lens mount on it doesn't mean you get to call others "thieves", there is really nothing that special about that.

RED themselves also benefited greatly from those who had came before them. 
 

3 hours ago, sanveer said:

Considering the limited number of countries and companies seriously innovating in the filmmaking space, Kinefinity has done what companies with billions in resources haven't.

Yes, it can't be denied that Kinefinity are innovating. 

 

3 hours ago, sanveer said:

 I am suddenly wondering whether Blackmagic Design and other companies should try and collaborate with Olympus (or pick an engineer or 2 from one of the major player's imaging divisions) and other companies to get autofocus capabilities.

Maybe Arri should collaborate with Olympus to get autofocus with their cameras?

Your argument makes about as much logical sense.... ?

That isn't BMD's target plans at this present time. (but who knows, the future might change, but not currently)

[sanveer]

27 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Maybe Arri should collaborate with Olympus to get autofocus with their cameras?

Your argument makes about as much logical sense.... ?

That isn't BMD's target plans at this present time. (but who knows, the future might change, but not currently)

Comparing BMD and Kinefinity with other companies like Arri is ludicrous. Arri has almost been around since the dawn of motion pictures, and are pretty elitist, regardless of what anyone believe otherwise. Their products among those of others like them (Panavision), prevented filmmaking from becoming more democratic. It's only since the 5d Mark ii accidentally gatecrashed the indie filmmaking party that others have moved to better codecs and features at a fraction of the cost. Arri would consider it below them to collaborate with anyone on auto focus.

I think you just stated something that made absolutely no sense. I mentioned Olympus because they aren't famous for their video capabilities and also because Sony and even Canon, the players with best Autofocus, are in direct competition with them in the Super High-end Cineme Cameras range. 

[Tone1k]

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

If I was James Jannard I would demand 1000 buck royalty for every damn camera body Kinefinity sells. It is a blatant copy. At least make Something different that you could claim you thought about for over 30 seconds in the design stage.I would be embarrassed to say I even own one.

That is the reason it is so cheap. They had no design team cost at all. Anyone that owns one ought to have to go to Confession and tell the priest you are co conspirator of Theft LoL. Some people I tell you what will do anything to save a buck. Even thievery.

Well I am kidding, eh I think, yeah I am....OK I am. ?

 

Eh, what!? 

The Kinefinity is the same design as a Red in the same way a Canon DSLR is the same design as a Nikon one, or a Sony ENG camera the same design as a Panasonic one, or a Brand A car fundamentally the same design as a brand B car. They all have the same basic design and configuration.