Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[John Brawley]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

E mount is a major advantage though, as that opens up a wealth of options. (for instance any of the zillions of E mount adapters, or many manual E mount lenses such as the Veydra cinema lenses!)
 

Just to be clear, the E mount option on Kinefininty is a DUMB mount as far as I know. No Iris control etc. 

You can't actually use native E mount lenses on there, but it's an intermediate mount for adapting to many others. 

Just like the MFT version of the BMCC that BMD did. DUMB MFT mount as a way to adapting to other mounts.

MFT offers the same "open" flexibility of a short FFD too and adapts to pretty much anything that E can adapt to. And on this camera it's a native MFT mount too with all the options ?

JB

[webrunner5]

11 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

The Red Raven is a micro 4/3 camera in 16x9 mode so it would be so much easier if it was a true Micro 4/3 mount, but that's likely not possible because the sensor is too far into the body. 

Red has been building cameras for going on almost 20 years now. I know, I had the original Red One on order for over a year. It is easy to look back and say, Oh they should have done that, they should have done this. The Red One was a groundbreaking camera that has bought about a lot more groundbreaking cameras that we can actually afford to buy. Your beloved Kinefinity is one of the spinoffs thanks to Red. Kinefinity has been making cameras for 5 years, 2013, and they have made great strides no doubt in that time.

I am not a big fan of Any camera manufacturer anymore. My days of buying, renting, using high end stuff for a living, hobby are over. I am retired so probably this new 4K BMPCC is as high price as I can really justify to go with the money I make now. But I don't think even though it doesn't cost too much is detracting from it's ability to probably hold it's own cameras 5 times it's price. So why pay more for what I do and need. Probably true for lot more people than me. ☺️

 

[John Brawley]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Red has been building cameras for going on almost 20 years now. I know, I had the original Red One on order for over a year. 

Umm.

Shipping for more like 10 years (just) and not much longer than that as a company.

JB

 

[mercer]

@John Brawley sorry for the OT but  we just finished watching the end of the first season of The Resident and I really enjoyed the visuals. I loved the handheld work... what kind of rig were you using again?

Also as far as props go... how realistic is the production? In the last episode, the story line called for a Dacron graft for the aortic valve repair... my GF had an aortic tear repaired a decade ago and has a Dacron graft... she was curious if that was a real prop of the graft?

Also I know you said you shot it in 1080p but Fox broadcasts 720p... did you guys downscale the 1080p to 720p for delivery, or does Fox take care of that?

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, John Brawley said:

Umm.

Shipping for more like 10 years (just) and not much longer than that as a company.

JB

Like I said I had an order for one probably back in 2006. It was over a year I guess before they shipped. I had been talking with Jim Jannard on the phone and with emails for an easy year before that or more. He had had the idea for a Red camera for Years before one actually hit the street.

I finally gave up.. It was that bad on delays. I needed a camera then, not one 2 years later. I ended up just giving up on the project and never revisited it.

[tupp]

22 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

The Sony E mount has a depth of 18mm which is way too shallow for using on a Red camera. The sensor is nearly on the flange on Sony cameras.

I believe that is precisely the point that @Savannah_Miller (and others) were trying to make, to counter your suggestion that Red has had versatility in regards to mounts before others.

 

 

22 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

This the the Kinefinity mount options. Other than E mount I don't see anymore listed that Red has. Actually there is less of them.

No.  Kinefinity  has one more option with the native mounts  (with focal-reducers for both a Nikon and EF, but no native Leica-M) than Red, and especially with any adapter/focal-reducer that can attach to a Sony E-mount (which also includes anything that can attach to M4/3, such as a tilt/swing PL mount!).

 

Not sure if most shooters (nor even many camera manufacturers) understand the significant advantage of having such a shallow mount.

 

 

17 hours ago, Savannah Miller said:

Blackmagic is much more flexible in building cameras that match the sensors. 

I wouldn't say that Blackmagic consistently builds cameras that " match the sensor."  BMD tried to get "cute" with the ID on their first few cameras to the detriment of functionality/usability.  This malady is a common to manufacturers trying to make an impact when starting out in an industry.

 

Unlike Kinefinity, BMD is definitely ignorant of the advantages of having shallow mount capabilities, and they don't seem to understand that a camera with a shallow mount does not preclude electronic capability in EF lenses.

 

I have talked to them about shallow mounts at every NAB since the Ursa Mini first appeared.  At that time, I even made a US$10,000 bet with one of their condescending show reps that an S35 sensor can be used with a M4/3 mount (the Ursa Mini appeared the same year as the JVC LS300).  Unfortunately, it seems that the same camera manufacturer hubris that (according to BMD) pushed them in to making their own models is now thoroughly entrenched within Blackmagic Design.  Like most other camera makers, they are more interested moving boxes than they are in creating versatile cameras.

 

In regards to the aesthetic design of the 4K Pocket camera, BMD definitely was not trying to be "cute" at NAB -- that prototype is possibly the most butt-ugly camera that I have ever seen.  I almost recoiled in horror when I first saw it.

 

 

6 hours ago, John Brawley said:

MFT offers the same "open" flexibility of a short FFD too and adapts to pretty much anything that E can adapt to. And on this camera it's a native MFT mount too with all the options ?

Too bad BMD doesn't offer M4/3 mount or Sony E mount or Canon M mount (or just a simple shallow mount plate) on their S35 cameras.

 

 

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Red has been building cameras for going on almost 20 years now.

As I recall, Red first appeared at the 2005-2006 NAB saying that they were coming out with a 4K camera.  It was vaporware for a long time after that.  The story that I heard about Red's beginning was that Jannard was having problems with some Sony camera from 2004-2005, which gave him the notion that he could make his own camera.

 

 

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

The Red One was a groundbreaking camera that has bought about a lot more groundbreaking cameras that we can actually afford to buy.

Keep in mind that Dalsa started showing their 4k, raw cinema camera at NAB around 2003.  After that, miniaturization and continually diminishing cost is just a natural progression -- not innovation.

 

 

5 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Your beloved Kinefinity is one of the spinoffs thanks to Red.

I am no huge fan of Kinefinity, but I think that they have a better idea than Red and BMD  on how to make a camera with advantageous versatility.

 

I would not say that Kinefinity is a "spinoff" of Red.  The only thing that those two brands have in common is a boxy design of no particular novelty and the use of common lens mount plates (which are configured much more advantageously on the Kinefinity models).

 

 

[webrunner5]

3 hours ago, John Brawley said:

Umm.

Shipping for more like 10 years (just) and not much longer than that as a company.

JB

 

Red Camera was started in 1999. You don't ship a camera the first day you start i business! That is 19 years ago. I have owned two Incorporated company's and I sure never hit the ground running the next day with products or services LoL.

1 hour ago, tupp said:

I believe that is precisely the point that @Savannah_Miller (and others) were trying to make, to counter your suggestion that Red has had versatility in regards to mounts before others.

Why do you think I brought up that point. I agreed with him. It is too shallow for the Red.

As I recall, Red first appeared at the 2005-2006 NAB saying that they were coming out with a 4K camera.  It was vaporware for a long time after that.  The story that I heard about Red's beginning was that Jannard was having problems with some Sony camera from 2004-2005, which gave him the notion that he could make his own camera.

I was shipping in 2007, not a long time.

Keep in mind that Dalsa started showing their 4k, raw cinema camera at NAB around 2003.  After that, miniaturization and reduced cost is just a natural technological progression -- not innovation.

https://www.teledynedalsa.com/en/news/newsroom/dalsa-origin-footage-featured-in-first-international-real-time-collaboration-on-4k-digital-cinema-content 

It was September 28, 2005 when they first show footage from it. At the same time Red showed there camera. Maybe not footage but..

I am no huge fan of Kinefinity, but I think that they have a better idea than Red and BMD  on how to make a camera with advantageous versatility.

Sure I can look back at what You call mistakes and make a new camera that sort of corrects that.. But Since they use an oversized m4/3 sensor  in their 4K cameras that Had to make it shallow.

I would not say Kinefinity is a "spinoff" of Red.  The only thing that those two brands have in common is a boxy design of no particular novelty and the use of common lens mount plates (which are configured much more advantageously on the Kinefinity models).

Well that is your idea. Noit what Red thinks. If they wanted they can maake any mount they want by redesigning the Camera. I don't think Red, or Arri, or Panavison, BMD is going to do that anytime soon.

 

 

[Savannah Miller]

The blackmagic is not THAT ugly, and likely when you hold it, all your opinions will change.  The Pocket 4K feels good in your hands.

[DBounce]

17 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

The blackmagic is not THAT ugly, and likely when you hold it, all your opinions will change.  The Pocket 4K feels good in your hands.

It’s not ugly, but it’s no beauty either. Of course none of that matters if it has “mojo”. Let’s hope that’s the case.

[webrunner5]

2 minutes ago, DBounce said:

It’s not ugly, but it’s no beauty either. Of course none of that matters if it has “mojo”. Let’s hope that’s the case.

Yeah but I think there are two main reasons it is sort of Frumpy is the 5" screen size, and the Cooling Fan housing. I doubt filming in 4K will be a problem unlike Sony has with such a small body. I suspect that is what is holding up the Sony A7s k III.

[John Brawley]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Red Camera was started in 1999. You don't ship a camera the first day you start i business! That is 19 years ago. I have owned two Incorporated company's and I sure never hit the ground running the next day with products or services LoL.

 

I'm not sure where you get that from.

RED's own history page says

"The genesis of RED® stirred in 2005, with the first RED ONE® camera being delivered in August of 2007. Jim Jannard, the owner and founder of sportswear and sunglass icon, Oakley, set out to realize his ultimate quest, to build the world's best cameras. "

And there's also a picture of their first camera, which they say was their first camera.

"Built in early 2006, RED's first testing platform, a mere sliver of what would ultimately become MYSTERIUM®, was used to create the first image. "

http://www.red.com/history

JB

[webrunner5]

24 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

I'm not sure where you get that from.

RED's own history page says

"The genesis of RED® stirred in 2005, with the first RED ONE® camera being delivered in August of 2007. Jim Jannard, the owner and founder of sportswear and sunglass icon, Oakley, set out to realize his ultimate quest, to build the world's best cameras. "

And there's also a picture of their first camera, which they say was their first camera.

"Built in early 2006, RED's first testing platform, a mere sliver of what would ultimately become MYSTERIUM®, was used to create the first image. "

http://www.red.com/history

JB

So you really believe Jannard stated a company and 1 1/2 years, to 2 years later was selling the Red One Mysterium, Interesting. And the reason I pre ordered one was I had heard about it  and followed it for years before it ever came to a reality. It was off and on again and again.  Mostly because the tech was not there at the time. Red pretty much builds there own cameras. https://petapixel.com/2017/11/30/red-cameras-made/

I was hardly going to pay 13 thousand bucks for a camera from a guy I never heard of, or read about in 2006.  

https://petapixel.com/2017/11/30/red-cameras-made/

Wiki Says 1999. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Digital_Cinema

This article say the same. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/426387/red-the-camera-that-changed-hollywood/

[Jim Giberti]

10 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

So you really believe Jannard stated a company and 1 1/2 years later was selling the Red One Mysterium! Interesting.

Yeah, because that's what happened. 

He started the actual conversation in 2005 - discussing the concept of the first camera.

The timeline is what it is. Like Jim, I reserved the url 6 years ago for a new firm that's launching this summer.

It's pretty common for enetrpreneurs to have an idea/goal/concept and come up with the name, "Red" in this case, and then reserve that name years before actually doing anything with it.

That's all Jim did before 2005 - buy an $8 url.

 

[webrunner5]

6 minutes ago, Jim Giberti said:

Yeah, because that's what happened. 

He started the actual conversation in 2005 - discussing the concept of the first camera.

The timeline is what it is. Like Jim, I reserved the url 6 years ago for a new firm that's launching this summer.

It's pretty common for enetrpreneurs to have an idea/goal/concept and come up with the name, "Red" in this case, and then reserve that name years before actually doing anything with it.

That's all Jim did before 2005 - buy an $8 url.

 

You and JB are both crazy LoL. He is going to build a whole factory, hire everyone, and engineer, and build them, and ship them 1 3/4 years later, yeah, sure that is what happened. And I believe in the tooth fairy.

[Savannah Miller]

No way that domain was $8.  He probably paid out the ass to get it.  I wouldn't be surprised if it cost 6 figures.

[John Brawley]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

You and JB are both crazy LoL. He is going to build a whole factory, hire everyone, and engineer, and build them, and ship them 1 3/4 years later, yeah, sure that is what happened. And I believe in the tooth fairy.

That's exactly what happened.

Here's an early post by Jarrend Land who had founded DVXUSER (now also REDUSER and BMCUSER) and who is now running the show at RED.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?40929-RED-CAMERA-Prelim-Specs&p=372657&viewfull=1#post372657

It says "target" specs.  You don't put a target sensor resolution is you've been designing a sensor for years.

He did not found the company in 1999.

RED's own website history gives the timeline.  You're quoting Wikipedia.  I'm quoting RED.

Their first prototype camera was made in 2006. He shipped the RED ONE 2 years later.  That's about the normal development time if you're starting from scratch.

He bought a lot of his technology and IP in through other existing companies or consultants to shorcut the development time. Companies like Cineform are rumoured to be what Redcode is.  He bought the tessive guys, turned that into motion mount.  He bought Accuscene and they became the first EVF.  Trying to remember but he also bought a matte-box company too. 

I was there too when the first announcement came and there was a lot of naysayers on CML.  I seem to remember a bet and someone eating a cake in the shape of a hat.

JB

[webrunner5]

Well I will admit is is confusing to be honest. It's water over the damn now. His company is doing well and that is good. He is pushing hard and that benefits us all now and down the road.

And yeah I still go to CML everyday. Lot of know how on there and insider stuff. Not like it once was but..

Crazy news. Jannard owns the Fiji islands of Kaibu and Vatu Vara. He also owns a 500-acre island in the San Juan Islands archipelago.

https://cml.news/g/cml-announcements

 

[webrunner5]

I found this pretty interesting article about him. Pretty much follows your timelines.

https://www.inc.com/magazine/201305/david-h-freedman/jim-jannard-and-the-red-camera-rebels.html

 

[Tone1k]

Why does what the Pocket 4k 'looks like' matter in the slightest? 

If the images are good and it's ergonomically well designed, I couldn't care less what it 'looks like'. 

I just don't get it, sorry. 

[jonpais]

Perhaps because in this day and age, consumers have become accustomed to elegant industrial design? Much of my appreciation for Fuji’s cameras, Voigtlander lenses and even something as basic as the Bright Tangerine Titan Arm comes from their aesthetics, the materials used in their manufacture and fine craftsmanship.