Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Jim Giberti]

I've seen some stunning work done on the C500 as I have with the C300...

I mean seriously. JB is shooting some of his network narrative handheld with a BMMCC, just for one "local" example.

Anyone can crap on anything if they want to but creatively speaking, any quality shooter/producer can make any number of cameras, tossed around this and other sites, produce brilliant imagery.

It's like the the idea that no one is using _____ camera or ___ camera on big shoots.

Well yeah, when you're spending tens of ks per day on production of course you use the most versatile, proven and adaptable cameras you can budget.

But to equate that (as a lot of people do) into a sense that smaller/cheaper cameras can't produce the necessary image for quality story telling just doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

We crossed that Rubicon a while ago.

[jlabscreative]

On 4/9/2018 at 1:57 PM, andrgl said:

Yup, as exciting as this camera is, the form factor is no good for gimbals.

Too wide, single mounting points, no shutter release, possibly heavier than the original pocket.

Hopefully an updated micro is around the corner.

Also not to be a downer, but Grant even said the announcement was happening too early for his liking. September 2018 release is a pipedream, zero point in preordering.

Based on the dimensions it will fit comfortably on the Ronin S.

[Savannah Miller]

Well you can't say because film used certain camera that it's somehow good?  Shane hurlbut is always promoting the same crap on his blogs, and I feel certain brands pay him and give him free stuff.  I never believe any of his opinions about what he says about gear.  Look how he promotes those Xeen lenses so heavily when in fact they're garbage compared to other similarly priced lenses like SLR Magic APO, etc.

 

Notice how in one quote the guy said, "We truly have tested every digital platform out there, and C500 is the best we've ever seen."  Now either that's out of context, or they're paying him to say that because what is making him say this with other cameras like RED Dragon, Arri Alexa, F65 etc. also available?

 

 

He only used the c500 because it was smaller and lighter than other cameras at the time and could shoot 4K.  Now I'm almost certain he would have gone Alexa Mini to do the same things.

[kye]

20 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

Notice how in one quote the guy said, "We truly have tested every digital platform out there, and C500 is the best we've ever seen."  Now either that's out of context, or they're paying him to say that because what is making him say this with other cameras like RED Dragon, Arri Alexa, F65 etc. also available?

Yeah, context is king.  Every tool has pros and cons depending on the situation.

That's one of the biggest challenges in these forums, we're all shooting different stuff in different situations but we don't reliably communicate what our unique needs are.

[Tone1k]

22 hours ago, kye said:

I'm definitely not JB, but I can talk about testing, having been involved in software development and testing in my day job.

The short version of why things are released with bugs is this:

• A company figures out that they can build a camera with X features in Y time, and they think that it will fill a niche and make money
• They start to develop it, and due to how dependencies in projects work, development takes longer than anticipated
• The company knows that releasing a product late is a huge mistake, especially in a rapidly developing market, but they also know that releasing a product that is flawed is also a bad idea
• The company goes into TESTING, where people are using the camera, noting down issues, annoyances, and product features in a big database
• Everything in the database is ranked (according to importance) and then allocated to a tech to fix
• Once an issue is fixed it is then sent back to the person who found it to test it again
• It is common for a change to fix something but break something else, and it's also common for a problem to be caused by two things (eg, hardware and software, or two different software modules) not being completely aligned.  Communication needs to occur, discussions to understand what is happening, what to be done, implications etc..
• At some point (normally the publicised release date) a huge meeting is held and all the remaining items to be fixed are reviewed by management and the decision to release it anyway is made.  It is very very very rare for something to miss the delivery deadline because of the number of issues.
• The process of identifying, tracking, fixing, testing, continues during the lifetime of the product (and is why there are firmware updates to a product)

In reality there will be thousands, maybe tens of thousands of items involved in a process like this.  Nothing is ever perfect.  It is not possible to test every function with every combination of data. 

Here's a quote from an article about developing the software for the space shuttle:  [Edit: here's the link to the below]

I highlighted the relevant passages in bold.

Obviously, NASA has more at stake with software problems than a consumer electronics company, and even then, they can't possibly test everything.

There is a typical divide in culture in an organisation around Risk.  

• IT and engineering professionals are normally trained in a culture of excellence, where due to advanced mathematical training, there is often an underlying and often unconscious mindset of there being one answer to a question, and therefore one solution to a problem, with the rest being sub-optimal.  These teams are often incentivised by having KPIs and bonuses around system reliability.
• Sales, marketing, and product managers operate in "the market" which is complicated, messy, and is basically a shit-fight, and know that sales (and therefore profit) are more related to perception rather than facts, and they know that every day a product shipping date is delayed is lost sales.  They know that nothing will ever be 'perfect' and are fully ready to 'explain away' any shortcomings of the product once it's in the market, but they can't do a single thing or sell a single unit until it is actually released.  These people have KPIs and often have large percentages of their income based on sales bonuses.  They care about quality, but only as it impacts sales.
• Often, Sales, marketing, and product managers think that IT and engineering professionals are ivory tower elitists who will 'gold plate' everything until the company goes bankrupt and products have to be ripped from their hands in order for the company to ever be finished and for anyone to ever get paid.
• Often, IT and engineering professionals think that Sales, marketing, and product managers are reckless, dodgy, cowboys who have no pride in quality, no understanding of shafting the consumer by fast-talk and no integrity, and they need to prevent products from being released too soon otherwise their lack of quality will immediately sink the company and no-one will get paid ever again.

I hope this illuminates why products ship will bugs.  It's a fundamental issue, and the final result is always a compromise.

Thanks for the reply. While I understand that any piece of equipment can have many small bugs, major image issues for a device who's job it is to capture images should not be allowed to make their way into production. 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Savannah Miller said:

Well you can't say because film used certain camera that it's somehow good?  Shane hurlbut is always promoting the same crap on his blogs, and I feel certain brands pay him and give him free stuff.  I never believe any of his opinions about what he says about gear.  Look how he promotes those Xeen lenses so heavily when in fact they're garbage compared to other similarly priced lenses like SLR Magic APO, etc.

Notice how in one quote the guy said, "We truly have tested every digital platform out there, and C500 is the best we've ever seen."  Now either that's out of context, or they're paying him to say that because what is making him say this with other cameras like RED Dragon, Arri Alexa, F65 etc. also available?

He only used the c500 because it was smaller and lighter than other cameras at the time and could shoot 4K.  Now I'm almost certain he would have gone Alexa Mini to do the same things.

I will give you some credit about Shane Hurlbut. I am not too fond of his stuff either. I mean he seems to know his stuff but he never seems to perfect anything. He is Always into the next thing, ergo camera, and never hones the cameras he already had.  Now I realize he doesn't make a big time movie every month so by the time he is on the next set new things Have come out.

But they are unproven, and sometimes it bites you in the ass. He experiments too much I think. But he does know his theory on stuff I will give him that, and definitely gives back to the community.

But it was a lot cheaper to crash C500's than Red cameras that is for sure. So I can see why he used them, and I think he was one of the first to use them. He makes a ton more money than I do that is for sure. So he has to be doing something right.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Savannah Miller said:

Notice how in one quote the guy said, "We truly have tested every digital platform out there, and C500 is the best we've ever seen."  Now either that's out of context, or they're paying him to say that because what is making him say this with other cameras like RED Dragon, Arri Alexa, F65 etc. also available?

I have no doubt that for the time and for him (that is, his particular project/needs he was on then) that the C500 was the right choice. 

Of course it doesn't mean it would be right now, or for everyone else for everything else. 

11 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Thanks for the reply. While I understand that any piece of equipment can have many small bugs, major image issues for a device who's job it is to capture images should not be allowed to make their way into production. 

When issues are only found in edge cases then yes these too are "bugs", and not unreasonable/unexpected in a shipping product. 

And it is unfortunately quite easy for bugs to creep back in when you shift from very small production runs (often just hand built prototypes) to large scale mass production. As the changeover introduces new unknown variables and complexities (which is a common problem we've seen bite BMD and other brands)

 

11 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

But it was a lot cheaper to crash C500's than Red cameras that is for sure. So I can see why he used them, and I think he was one of the first to use them. He makes a ton more money than I do that is for sure. So he has to be doing something right.

When the C500 first came out it was a $20K camera, not really that different to a RED Scarlet, certainly the price difference would be chump change to a Hollywood production

[webrunner5]

10 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

When the C500 first came out it was a $20K camera, not really that different to a RED Scarlet, certainly the price difference would be chump change to a Hollywood production

Probably the RED Scarlet Body "Only" cost 20K LoL. Oh you want a hand grip, a LCD, a battery adapter, or Red Mags, you get the picture. Someone can give you a body and you still can't afford the rest it takes to shoot it. ?

The C500 body is pretty much all you need other than media for it.

[IronFilm]

I can't recall  the details or be bothered looking it up, but from memory the base body for the RED Scarlet was sub $10K so even once adding in thousands more dollars of extras that is still probably less than a C500. But even if I give you the benefit of the doubt here (Happy to do so!), and say a RED Scarlet package is going to cost thousands of dollars more than the C500, that still doesn't matter as the rental price difference I'm sure would be so small it would be chump change for a blockbuster film like he was using it on. And that is my point. 

[John Brawley]

29 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Thanks for the reply. While I understand that any piece of equipment can have many small bugs, major image issues for a device who's job it is to capture images should not be allowed to make their way into production. 

Here's a Black Sun from an Alexa shoot of mine, and a nice OLPF flare from a DXL / RED Monstro on the latest Mission Impossible trailer.

JB

[webrunner5]

50 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

I can't recall  the details or be bothered looking it up, but from memory the base body for the RED Scarlet was sub $10K so even once adding in thousands more dollars of extras that is still probably less than a C500. But even if I give you the benefit of the doubt here (Happy to do so!), and say a RED Scarlet package is going to cost thousands of dollars more than the C500, that still doesn't matter as the rental price difference I'm sure would be so small it would be chump change for a blockbuster film like he was using it on. And that is my point. 

Well I am sure Anything is cheaper than shooting Panavision whether Film or Digital. ?

Canon C500 came out in 2012. First movies, 3 of them, were shot in 2014. C500 cost 30 grand new. The Scarlet X  introduced in 2012  by coming in at under $10,000 for the body and under $15,000 for the kit. Canon C300 came out in January 2012. Cost 16 Grand.

[Savannah Miller]

Weight was the issue.  Red Scarlet and Dragon cameras in DSMC1 form factor were too heavy  for the gimbals they had at the time, and they wanted to shoot at high ISO as well, so a no-go for Alexa.  If Arri Mini was available, I'm sure they would have gone with that over C500.

[webrunner5]

7 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

Weight was the issue.  Red Scarlet and Dragon cameras in DSMC1 form factor were too heavy  for the gimbals they had at the time, and they wanted to shoot at high ISO as well, so a no-go for Alexa.  If Arri Mini was available, I'm sure they would have gone with that over C500.

Out of likes. Agree on that. But the MōVI® M10 came out in 2013. So they had gimbals soon after the Canon C series stuff came out, and the Red Scarlet.

[Savannah Miller]

Wait is there a limit on likes?

[webrunner5]

5 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

Wait is there a limit on likes?

It is less than you think a day. And I think Andrew even raised the limit not long ago??

[IronFilm]

29 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Well I am sure Anything is cheaper than shooting Panavision whether Film or Digital. ?

Canon C500 came out in 2012. First movies, 3 of them, were shot in 2014. C500 cost 30 grand new. The Scarlet X  introduced in 2012  by coming in at under $10,000 for the body and under $15,000 for the kit. Canon C300 came out in January 2012. Cost 16 Grand.

Thanks, you just made my point that choosing a C500 (over say a RED) wasn't due to the lower cost. 

[webrunner5]

8 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Thanks, you just made my point that choosing a C500 (over say a RED) wasn't due to the lower cost. 

He used All kinds of cameras in that film. From Arri to GoPro. I would not doubt Canon helped out with the C500's, 1DC's.

https://theasc.com/ac_magazine/April2014/NeedforSpeed/page1.html

[IronFilm]

And I'm sure if he had used RED then they'd have also helped him out as well, that is part of their job at RED to deliver top notch service. Just the same as at name other companies. 

22 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I would not doubt Canon helped out with the C500's, 1DC's.

 

[webrunner5]

3 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

And I'm sure if he had used RED then they'd have also helped him out as well, that is part of their job at RED to deliver top notch service. Just the same as at name other companies. 

 

No I mean they probably Loaned them to Shane. They were not setting the world on fire at 30 grand a pop. They would have been stupid not too.

[kye]

3 hours ago, Tone1k said:

Thanks for the reply. While I understand that any piece of equipment can have many small bugs, major image issues for a device who's job it is to capture images should not be allowed to make their way into production. 

LOL..  I guess you know better than all the people who actually do this for a living.  I look forward to you releasing your prefect camera!!