Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[jonpais]

40 minutes ago, Savannah Miller said:

Blackmagic can't get their battery life much better unless they use a different cooling method and/or switch to an ASIC which will likely not happen any time soon.

They optimize their cameras fairly well for the features they do have.

An articulating screen would be ridiculously hard to design with a screen that size. It probably was much easier to use a monitor they already know is of a high quality.

Blackmagic has probably looked into autofocus by now and it is really expensive.

Do you work for Blackmagic, too?

It was my understanding that if they used a battery similar to that in Panasonic’s GH5, battery life would be much improved.

I do have a question for anyone who knows: don’t cameras with heavily compressed codecs get hotter than those that do not?

And just how do you know whether BMD did a cost/benefit analysis of AF-C in the batcam? Anyhow, why state the obvious? Of course it’s expensive!

However, unlike BMD, Sony and Canon already have a lens lineup optimized for their AF. Blackmagic does not. 

[Savannah Miller]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Do you work for Blackmagic, too?

It was my understanding that if they used a battery similar to that in Panasonic’s GH5, battery life would be much improved.

I do have a question for anyone who knows: don’t cameras with heavily compressed codecs get hotter than those that do not?

And just how do you know whether BMD did a cost/benefit analysis of AF-C in the batcam? Anyhow, why state the obvious? Of course it’s expensive!

However, unlike BMD, Sony and Canon already have a lens lineup optimized for their AF. Blackmagic does not. 

LP-E6 canon battery is almost the same size as Panasonic batteries, but not sure if it has the same juice.  

Blackmagic cameras use FGPA which is a less optimized board compared to an ASIC and requires more power.  It has an advantage of shorter production cycles especially in lower volume cameras because you can easily make last-minute adjustments if you want to add more features.  ASICs is very locked in as they are expensive to manufacture.

They use solid state peltier cooling to handle the heat distribution and that uses a lot of power.  I don't know if other cameras use that but it does make a difference.

I don't think type of compression plays a big part in heat, it's mainly the sensor.

 

 

Blackmagic is not very experienced in building DSLR form-factor cameras yet, in what is only their second attempt they produced a camera at half the price of the GH5s that will likely be a serious rival in image quality.  I think Blackmagic made the right compromises to get it at the price it is.

[Robert Collins]

2 hours ago, jonpais said:

 

And just how do you know whether BMD did a cost/benefit analysis of AF-C in the batcam? Anyhow, why state the obvious? Of course it’s expensive!

 

Given these cameras are appear to be based around Sony Starvis sensors, they won’t have OSPDAF and mirrorless afc is pretty poor without it. 

[kye]

3 hours ago, Cinegain said:

Indeed I was refering to the use for 'vloggers' that walk around with one of these, stretching their arms out, pointing the camera at themselves. This particular crowd I see no reason for having a cinema camera that require an extensive knowledge, thoughtprocess and skill, both in operation and in post-production. Now, if you're talking about certain YouTube 'shows' if you will, where there's an actual production environment... perhaps a set, but for sure lighting, audio, et cetera is taken heavily into consideration, as well as post-production and needing the footage to be of a certain standard and look with a ton of gradability, then of course a cinema camera fits right in. I was strictly talking about the Casey Neistat wannabes out there, riding around on their Boosted boards, trying hard to be semi-interesting, all using the same music and effects they've picked up from Sam Kolder and co; that basically would've used Snapchat and their smartphone to get content online easy and quick, but are seeking after bigger sensor aesthetics and optical zoom. There a point-and-shoot makes more sense than a cinema camera... Casey himself uses a smartphone on his runs, tries to have atleast a G7XII with him on-the-go, will be out and about with a Gorillapod and 80D (6DmkII?) for regular vlogs and B-roll and hates on Sony for not really having front-facing displays for vlogging, but doesn't mind so much using them for static tripod/rig shots at his studio. It's all about the application and what I keep on saying: the right tool for the job. Jon Olsson was obsessed with getting a RED. Thought it would make things EPIC. Found that it's a very impractical camera for vlogs and went with Sony/Pansonic/Canon interchangeable lens cameras instead.

I agree..  YT 'shows' is a pretty good name, although I'd still stress that there are people doing both 'shows' and 'vlogs' and also people who use a mixture of techniques, or even a technique somewhere in the middle.  

Only earlier today did I watch a video by a lady who shows how she does construction projects (this particular video was about her making a large wood and metal gate) and as we'd been having this conversation I was paying attention to the shots in it.  It seemed that she was sitting and talking to camera with the narration of the video and was cutting b-roll of the build over the top, however what was interesting was that her shot was a tripod / lav mic shot but it was outside in uncontrolled conditions, so that's somewhere in-between your two scenarios described above. Also, included in the standard tripod b-roll shots was a fancy dolly shot where the camera follows her from one room of her shed to another (the front face of the shed was open, so it was one of those "looking into the building from outside" style shots).  It was an interesting shot because I think it shows she's got an appetite for upping the production value, and the fact she's already got a lav and sound is nice means she's not new to the game.  She also sells plans for projects online, so her channel is a business.

Would she benefit from having a cinema camera?  Maybe.  I didn't see any evidence of auto-focus requirements, or IBIS requirements, so a cinema camera wouldn't be ruled out.  If she shot 1080 in prores then maybe her edits would go faster, so there's perhaps some benefit.  I don't think she'd benefit from having more DR via a flatter profile, but others like her might.  I think the lines between (hand-held + selfie + outside) and (tripod + not selfie + studio) scenarios that the industry thinks in are so blurry that they ceased to exist quite some time ago.

And yes, I did notice Jon Olsson getting excited about the RED and then it not featuring much again.  I heard a mention that their camera guy had a routine of taking it out to get b-roll early in the morning when they were in Monaco before Jon had woken up, but yes, in terms of lugging it around during the day or through airports etc it's not the right camera for the job!!

[John Brawley]

9 hours ago, jonpais said:

I don’t know anything about doubling sales, but a longer life battery would most certainly be welcome - manufacturers of everything from cellphones to laptops to you name it realize the importance of battery life.

Nowhere is it written in stone that you should spend upwards of $300 for a solution to a problem that need not exist in the first place. 

How do you know that ?

Active thermoelectric cooling for example.

JB

[jonpais]

9 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

How do you know that ?

Active thermoelectric cooling for example.

JB

So you're saying it was impossible to have a longer life battery like the Panasonic? (asking for clarification)

[Myownfriend]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

So you're saying it was impossible to have a longer life battery like the Panasonic? (asking for clarification)

I think he's just saying that it's wrong to assume that BMD could match the battery life of the Lumix series with all else being equal. Like he said, BMD cameras tend to use TEC coolers which can use a bit of power all by themselves but generally do good job keeping the sensor cool. I believe BMD also uses Xilinx FPGAs which are slower and less power efficient than custom ASICS but are cheaper because they're generic. In other words, if they didn't use these things, the battery life would likely be longer but it would be at the expense of price and cooling.

[jonpais]

12 minutes ago, Myownfriend said:

I think he's just saying that it's wrong to assume that BMD could match the battery life of the Lumix series with all else being equal. Like he said, BMD cameras tend to use TEC coolers which can use a bit of power all by themselves but generally do good job keeping the sensor cool. I believe BMD also uses Xilinx FPGAs which are slower and less power efficient than custom ASICS but are cheaper because they're generic. In other words, if they didn't use these things, the battery life would likely be longer but it would be at the expense of price and cooling.

Thanks for clarifying.

I was not comparing the batcam to Lumix. 

I merely asked whether it might have been capable of using a longer life battery, similar to what Sony and Panasonic have done.

[Myownfriend]

29 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Thanks for clarifying.

I was not comparing the batcam to Lumix. 

I merely asked whether it might not have been capable of using a longer life battery, similar to what Sony and Panasonic have done.

Oh, then I'm not really sure what you're getting at then if you're not talking about the Lumix line. Looking back at Savannah's post (which I realized has much of the same info I posted. My bad), she was responding to post in which you specifically mention the GH5. If you're referring to the ability for the user to replace the battery with a higher capacity one? Technically, there's nothing preventing someone from doing that if a higher capacity batter exists and fits the camera.

If you're talking about the battery that ships with the cameras, the one that ships with the GH5/s is about 13.4Wh (7.2V 1860mAH), the A7S II has a 7.54Wh (7.4 1020mAH) battery, while the one that ships with the Pocket 4K is 14.8Wh (7.4V 2000mAH). So the Pocket 4K does have a higher capacity battery but the camera itself just uses more power.

[Mckinise]

Do any of the BlackMagic Design Camera have pixel mapping or pixel refresh?  If not, that is a feature I would like to see added.

[Jim Giberti]

You can't expect this camera, with it's advanced color science, codecs, 5" 1080 screen, phantom power, etc. to draw power like a GH5 or any other small camera.

For all that it's delivering, I would consider an average 45min run time on an LP-E6 to be great power management on BMs part.

I really don't get the contention. This is going to be a breakthrough camera by any standard. It's designed to be small with a compact battery solution that most people will use.

Even running around in the field with a battery in the camera and 4 tiny replacements in your pocket you can shoot all day.

If you do events or long format work with it, then there will be countless battery solutions to add if you feel the need.

It's all good.

[Myownfriend]

1 hour ago, Mckinise said:

Do any of the BlackMagic Design Camera have pixel mapping or pixel refresh?  If not, that is a feature I would like to see added.

According to a post by John Brawley on a the BMD forums, BMD cameras do have an automated pixel remapping function.

[John Brawley]

5 hours ago, jonpais said:

So you're saying it was impossible to have a longer life battery like the Panasonic? (asking for clarification)

Just like you’re saying that it is possible ? 

How do you know ?

The pocket 4k, like every Blackmagic camera uses a custom thermoelectric cooling system.  The only other camera platform that uses this approach is made by Arri. 

In fact this means it draws more power in hotter weather and less power in colder weather. It’s got a larger screen and has custom made hardware boards made internally by BMD themselves. They make the boards. The place the components. They don’t outsource. 

I beleive they tend to use FPGAs because they’re faster to prototype and totally re-program, but they use more power than ASICs which is what the big guys tend to use. ASICS use less power but are limited to their original design / specs and take longer to develop. 

They draw more power than consumer cameras that are more purpose built and have longer development cycles, therefore have more time to optimise their power consumption . 

Feel free to keep droning on about it and reminding everyone how bad it is but it’s not going to change the fact that they use more power than other consumer cameras.

JB

1 hour ago, Myownfriend said:

According to a post by John Brawley on a the BMD forums, BMD cameras do have an automated pixel remapping function.

It’s an automatic process. Just like you can’t do it on Alexa. 

JB

[jonpais]

4 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

Feel free to keep droning on about it and reminding everyone how bad it is but it’s not going to change the fact that they use more power than other consumer cameras.

JB

I appreciate the explanation, John, but there's no need to attack me personally.

Also, I never said that the camera is bad, or that it should last for 3 hours on one battery.

I only asked if it was possible to employ a larger capacity battery. Many others besides myself have also wondered the same. 

Have a good day.

[Myownfriend]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

I appreciate the explanation, John, but there's no need to attack me personally.

I mean you have made it pretty clear that you're hear to defend you brand of choice/camera of choice, thus your need to say "batcam" instead of Pocket 4K. That's gamer level stuff meant to start fights. I don't think it's a personal attack to describe what you've actually been doing.

[Anaconda_]

While you guys are arguing over nothing again - BM seem to still have some tests to do.

I guess that since the 0.64x Speedbooster works, it's fairly reasonable to assume the 0.71x will as well right? Of course real test would be better, but to me this kind of sounds like if the left shoe fits, the right one will too. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

 

EDIT: A major retailer in Holland just opened up the ability to pay 100% for this camera. To me that says they're pretty confident that they can deliver when expected (sometime in September) - But I'm failing to see the advantage of paying in full now and preordering... maybe it bumps up the queue.

[jonpais]

6 minutes ago, Myownfriend said:

I mean you have made it pretty clear that you're hear to defend you brand of choice/camera of choice, thus your need to say "batcam" instead of Pocket 4K. That's gamer level stuff meant to start fights. I don't think it's a personal attack to describe what you've actually been doing.

And just what is my camera of choice, since you are all-seeing and all-knowing, my friend?

Incidentally, batcam is affectionate.

[Cinegain]

20 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

While you guys are arguing over nothing again - BM seem to still have some tests to do.

I guess that since the 0.64x Speedbooster works, it's fairly reasonable to assume the 0.71x will as well right? Of course real test would be better, but to me this kind of sounds like if the left shoe fits, the right one will too. Can anyone correct me if I'm wrong?

 

That answer seems to be the other way around then. The sensor in the BMPCC4K (as it isn't quite as 'pocketable' I'd rather call it the 'BMUCC' (Ugly) myself) is bigger than the original. The BMPCC specialized speedboosters therefor will probably vignette severly. The 0.64x apparently remains to be seen... which again depends greatly on the sensor crop.

Quote

The Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K features a full size 4/3 sensor that gives you 4096 x 2160 resolution with an incredible 13 stops of dynamic range for true digital film quality. Because it’s full size, the 4/3 sensor reduces crop factor, giving you a wider field of view.

~ https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera

So... I expect similar compatibility to the 2x crop (full 4/3") GH5S.

[Myownfriend]

Just now, jonpais said:

And just what is my camera of choice, since you are all-seeing and all-knowing, my friend?

Feels like you have a thing for the Lumix series as far as I can tell but you'll show some love for Sony. And apparently something about the more stripped down, purpose-built nature of Blackmagic's cameras seems to makes so little sense to you and your needs  that you feel the need to be one of the most active posters in a 150+ page thread about it, all the while trying to down play the camera. Why else would you still be here? You have any intension on buying the camera? Probably not. 

[Anaconda_]

3 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

So... I expect similar compatibility to the 2x crop (full 4/3") GH5S.

Well, that's already been answered a while ago. it'll be 1.9x crop. I was just pointing out that they've been doing some testing with the non-camera-specific speedboosters, hich is promising... will likely save Metabones from making a new one specially, and current owners having to buy new ones to fit. Win win.