Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Nikkor]

Just now, IronFilm said:

If only you'd waited one generation longer and got the D7100!

I do sometimes get tempted to buy a D7000 myself, because they are dirt cheap on ebay and as a still camera they're pretty good for their price

As a stills camera it sucks too, that camera was a beta-test for the new sony sensor, colors are all off.

[IronFilm]

I've had a few photographer friends talk well about the D7000 though. Certainly would be an upgrade to the D90 I use! (well, I have a D5200, but need the D90 for the screw drive lenses I own. Actually the D90's is my GF's I live with, but I suppose I'll lose access to the D90 when we break up....  ha)

[Nikkor]

Just now, IronFilm said:

I've had a few photographer friends talk well about the D7000 though. Certainly would be an upgrade to the D90 I use! (well, I have a D5200, but need the D90 for the screw drive lenses I own. Actually the D90's is my GF's I live with, but I suppose I'll lose access to the D90 when we break up....  ha)

Break up,use the money you save by that to get a D700 (the color is way superior to the d7000 alien colors) or a D810 (the d800 autofocus is not reliable at all, specially with screw drive lenses)  

[BTM_Pix]

.

34 minutes ago, SR said:

This thread is becoming ridiculously petty. Let's just rename it, "Fuck Blackmagic". That way, we're clear on what the topic is really about.

To be fair, its only parts of the past 10 pages or so that have been rough going, the previous 190 odd were mainly positive.

Or as Alan Partridge would have put it

 

[Grimor]

7 hours ago, jonpais said:

“Most cameras are shit.” That’s classic. ???

Not all.

Hopefully, we will always have Cinemartin! ???

 

 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Mattias Burling said:

Speaking of Mountainbike videos, Olympus and possible lenses for a BMPCC4K or other m4/3.

 

I assume this was shot with e-m1ii? And wow, this looks really good and a nice comparison to the P4K mountain biking footage. 

I found the mountain biking and fishing in Shanghai videos to be the most useful footage released from BM. But side by side, for what I would use the camera for, the Olympus seems like the clear winner here.

I think there are some questions regarding the P4K that I guess I wasn’t aware of... is there a 2x crop in 1080p Raw? If so, then that’s a 4X crop of FF? Or is it a 2x crop instead of the 1.89x crop? I assume the latter because the former would be ridiculous, unless I could get my D-mount lenses to work with it.

I think Andrew’s point about it being the camera of the month is a very salient point. I’m sure the camera is awesome and there will be amazing footage floating around the internet and probably even short and feature films shot with it, but I’m also sure that a lot of people don’t realize how large the file sizes will be, even in ProRes LT. And then when you add the limited ISO options... basically two preset ISOs... 400 and 3200, people will quickly realize that this camera is designed for controlled shootings for shooters with resources. The original Pocket had the native 800 iso which would seem to be more useful than a native 400 and 3200?

When you add the cost of the peripherals most likely required... extra batteries, a couple chargers (canon batteries take 2 hours to charge) or an external battery solution, memory cards, lenses, possibly a speedbooster, ND filters, IR cut filters, a follow focus, a cage, etc... you are looking at well over $3000. Now I wouldn’t rig the camera up with half of that stuff but I know I am in the minority with this.

So at over $3000 one could get a C100 Mark II and have a usable camera with DPAF right out of the box that will probably be smaller than the Frankenrigged P4K. Or for only a little more new, the FS5 with Raw update will get you ProRes Raw.

[seanzzxx]

9 minutes ago, mercer said:

I think there are some questions regarding the P4K that I guess I wasn’t aware of... is there a 2x crop in 1080p Raw? If so, then that’s a 4X crop of FF? Or is it a 2x crop instead of the 1.89x crop? I assume the latter because the former would be ridiculous, unless I could get my D-mount lenses to work with it.

You assumed wrong, it's a 4x crop (roughly) compared to Full Frame. How wide do you need your slow-motion shots to be? You don't own an 18mm or something like that?

[Anaconda_]

Only in 1080 raw. 1080 Prores is full sensor

'When you add the cost of the peripherals most likely required... extra batteries, a couplechargers (canon batteries take 2 hours to charge) or an external battery solution, memorycards, lenses, possibly a speedbooster, NDfilters, IR cut filters, a follow focus, a cage, etc... you are looking at well over $3000'

@mercer Most of that is highly subjective too. Batteries are cheap and often come with chargers. I can get 4 for less than €50. Memory cards, yes I'll give you that. Lenses, that applies to every camera talked about on here. Speedbooster, I think most of us have one, or have native lenses, but granted, could be something to factor in. Then the rest depends on your style of shooting. For example, I don't plan on getting any kind of cage.

Then the ISO point, it's not 400 or 3200. My understanding is anything between that range will be a pretty clean image, and judging from what I've seen, even a little higher is a very nice picture.

Anyway, the whole thing basically depends on what you have already and how you shoot with your gear... Same as every other camera on the market.

 

Edit: yes the files will be big, but if you really want you can convert them to h264 for archiving or whatever. But you can't cut a short peice of string longer.

 

[Snowfun]

2 hours ago, SR said:

This thread is becoming ridiculously petty. 

For a moment there I thought Grant had turned up...

[mercer]

15 minutes ago, seanzzxx said:

You assumed wrong, it's a 4x crop (roughly) compared to Full Frame. How wide do you need your slow-motion shots to be? You don't own an 18mm or something like that?

Well Raw only goes up to 60p, right? Is 24p 1080p Raw a 4X crop as well?

[Anaconda_]

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

Well Raw only goes up to 60p, right? Is 24p 1080p Raw a 4X crop as well?

I think he meant shooting 120fps is also 4x crop. But yes, all 1080 raw options will be 4x as well as 120fps Prores options.

[mercer]

14 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Only in 1080 raw. 1080 Prores is full sensor

'When you add the cost of the peripherals most likely required... extra batteries, a couplechargers (canon batteries take 2 hours to charge) or an external battery solution, memorycards, lenses, possibly a speedbooster, NDfilters, IR cut filters, a follow focus, a cage, etc... you are looking at well over $3000'

Most of that is highly subjective too. Batteries are cheap and often come with chargers. I can get 4 for less than €50. Memory cards, yes I'll give you that. Lenses, that applies to every camera talked about on here. Speedbooster, I think most of us have one, or have native lenses, but granted, could be something to factor in. Then the rest depends on your style of shooting. I don't plan on getting any kind of cage.

Then the ISO point, it's not 400 or 3200. My understanding is anything between that range will be a pretty clean image, and judging from what I've seen, even a little higher is a very nice picture.

Anyway, the whole thing basically depends on what you have already and how you shoot with your gear... Same as every other camera on the market.

 

 

 

Yes, it is highly subjective, people shoot differently and already have some of that stuff. As far as batteries go, I use those Canon batteries all of the time, and although the Wasabi are decent alternatives, they do not last as long as the original Canon batteries which are $60 a pop. With the Micro, I was getting less than 45 minutes a battery, but the Micro didn’t have a screen, so even if the camera offers better battery life, there is still a screen to power, so I would expect 45 minutes or less... just something to think about. 

As far as ISOs, yes there is an entire range of ISO, but the hit in DR is the issue. If you’re losing a stop or two between the native ISOs... this has been true for the Pocket and the Micro as well. So for me, this is a two ISO camera. Granted having that 3200 ISO is an amazing option.

Obviously there is a fair amount of assumption going on here on my part but based on previous BM cameras in the same price point, I think these are fair assumptions to make.

7 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

I think he meant shooting 120fps is also 4x crop. But yes, all 1080 raw options will be 4x as well as 120fps Prores options.

Right, I can live with the 120p 4X crop in ProRes, but a 4X crop in 1080p Raw... IDK.

For me, this camera was going to be mostly a ProRes camera for both 1080p and 4K. And then if I wanted to shoot Raw, it would be 1080p, which I always did with the Pocket and Micro, it was so refreshing to be able to shoot it with SDXC cards.

[Diego Todu]

18 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

They did give the camera to reviewers. John was either wrong or lying.

Correct. Just want to do my fucking job.

It only sounds presumptuous if you aren't aware that this thread alone has 380,000 views, and the blog a million since August, and that I have been covering 'pocket' cinema cameras of all varieties since 2010 with the GH1 and was the first blogger to embrace Blackmagic's cameras when they came out in 2012. If you followed EOSHD from 2013 onwards you'd understand why it is an injustice. It's hard to explain this without sounding rather big headed about it, but that's the truth.

Well, you won't get the camera reviews you deserve if you don't support an honest reviewer. That's life!

I don't care about being in the pro box with lots of dull clients and a day rate.

I make my own films and music videos. You clearly haven't been following EOSHD for long enough to realise it and it's a really off judgement you're making, and not a very nice one if I may say so as well.

My post did not have malicious intent.   I've been following the blog for years, since the 5D Mark II & Magic Lantern craze.  I've used a lot of your tips and they've been very helpful.  I only just recently joined the forum.  I know you shoot, I think anybody with any degree of familiarity with the site knows that you shoot.  You have many haters, why I don't know.  I'm sure you know why.  That hasn't stopped me from visiting the site because I don't know you and I don't know the people who don't like you.  I just know that you're an alternative source of information for the products that I'm interested in.  The forum members are most likely the same people that are on bmcusers, the blackmagic forum, nofilmschool, cinema5d, etc.  My point was simply that making a public scene because you didn't get what you wanted isn't going to make them send you the blackmagic pocket 8k when it's comes out. It's only going to put you further down the black list.  This is Life 101.  I understand your frustration, you've done a lot of good work over the years and helped a lot of people, but this is industry bullshit.  It's in every industry.  If you want to be a part of the "in-crowd" of the industry you have to play the game.  If not, just say fuck em and do your own thing.  Remain independent.  Or... Buy the camera like everybody else because you love it and show them LOOK I've gotten 1,000,000 impressions on my review, you need to pay attention to what I'm doing over here.  Anyway, best of luck to you in the future.  I'll be looking forward to your unbiased review.

[capitanazo]

i have to say bye bye to my h265 120fps workflow :cc 
the 4x crop is insane, i will need a 10mm ff lens attach to a xl speedboster to get a 40mm on ff

:cccc 

well 4k60p 3:1 raw doesnt look a bad option

 

[Mattias Burling]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

 

Right, I can live with the 120p 4X crop in ProRes, but a 4X crop in 1080p Raw... IDK.

 

Its the same as the Production camera and if I remember correctly my Red.
Raw is always what the sensor gives you uncompressed (or lossless). So to be able to give you 1080p it has to cut that out for you. Or give it to you downsampled (prores). 

The good part is that BMDs in body downsample is better than what for example Adobe gives you in post. Thats one of the reasons why 4K isn't always sharper and clearer on youtube than HD. There is HD and HD as well as 4K and 4K. So even if you don't get raw 1080p I suspect you will get one helluva HD file.

 

[Joek]

19 minutes ago, capitanazo said:

i have to say bye bye to my h265 120fps workflow :cc 
the 4x crop is insane, i will need a 10mm ff lens attach to a xl speedboster to get a 40mm on ff

:cccc 

well 4k60p 3:1 raw doesnt look a bad option

 

...a 10mm lens with the 4x crop and a XL speed booster would come out to about 24mm (1.9 base crop multiplied by .64 by the speed booster multiplied by 10 for.the lens and multiplied by 2 for the 120fps crop.) 

[mercer]

2 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Its the same as the Production camera and if I remember correctly my Red.
Raw is always what the sensor gives you uncompressed (or lossless). So to be able to give you 1080p it has to cut that out for you. Or give it to you downsampled (prores). 

The good part is that BMDs in body downsample is better than what for example Adobe gives you in post. Thats one of the reasons why 4K isn't always sharper and clearer on youtube than HD. There is HD and HD as well as 4K and 4K. So even if you don't get raw 1080p I suspect you will get one helluva HD file.

 

Gotcha, that makes sense. And yes, if somebody is looking for a low cost option then 1080p ProRes will be the way to go, downsampled from the 4K sensor in camera should look amazing and recorded to SDXC cards will make for cheaper media costs. 

[wolf33d]

6 hours ago, Turboguard said:

Sorry to break it to you, but on both these, that’s were you come in. Maybe you should learn how to handle a camera? I haven’t had a camera with auto-focus for maybe 6-7years now. 

That’s what old fellas said when AF was invented for photography. Do most pros shoot MF in photography today? No they don’t. Does that mean they can’t handle a camera? No it doesn’t. 

I said the damn thing can’t focus: I meant by itself. I did not say I cannot do it. But let me assure you that manual focusing your camera while on a gimbal following a guy running on a mountain ridge is a PITA. When you tried DPAF and co for that kind of application there is no turning back. Stop thinking because it works for your application it works for all, and that if it does not work for other people's application it means they can’t handle it.

[Turboguard]

27 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

That’s what old fellas said when AF was invented for photography. Do most pros shoot MF in photography today? No they don’t. Does that mean they can’t handle a camera? No it doesn’t. 

I said the damn thing can’t focus: I meant by itself. I did not say I cannot do it. But let me assure you that manual focusing your camera while on a gimbal following a guy running on a mountain ridge is a PITA. When you tried DPAF and co for that kind of application there is no turning back. Stop thinking because it works for your application it works for all, and that if it does not work for other people's application it means they can’t handle it.

It was said as it was a breaking feature, like it wasn't worth shit because you have to manually focus. For other "application" than you running it on a gimbal where a follow focus maybe can't be use, I just think it sounded like laziness. Sure AF is great, but damn, I'd rather have MF than a broken (see ugly) over sharpened image. Again, it was just how the sentence was structured that got me thinking about how lazy people sometimes are when it comes to shooting. Imagine in the end, where would the fun in being a DP or camera op be if everything became auto and you actually don't have anything to do. Auto framing, auto perfect color application, auto follow subject on track, auto everything. LOL

[Anaconda_]

5 minutes ago, Turboguard said:

Auto framing, auto perfect color application, auto follow subject on track, auto everything.

Isn't that basically what DJIs drones do now? They're pretty fun.