Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Andrew Reid]

Yes. I have a professional obligation to my readers.

It's a shame you don't show any professional duty to the person hosting your comments, by the way.

[A_Urquhart]

2 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes. I have a professional obligation to my readers.

It's a shame you don't show any professional duty to the person hosting your comments, by the way.

Sorry, did you take offence to one of my comments? I'm not sure where I was being unprofessional toward you. 

[jonpais]

How hard can it be to at least make a small effort to try to match the shots from the two cameras? The one on the bottom is from the video, the one on the top a two-second color correction. In the video, I'd almost say they tried their hardest to make the GH5 look ghastly. No wonder what they saw were thin skin tones with little to no gradation. Even checking the vector scope, it's plain to see that their grade is far too magenta.

[Deadcode]

"How hard can it be to at least make a small effort to try to match the shots from the two cameras. The one on the bottom is from the video, the one on the top a two-second color correction."

For me this comparison felt like they wanted to make BM look better in most ways. Skintones: bad grade for GH5, Stabilization: "Dont worry, we put it on a gimbal. I mean the BM only," Dynamic range: let's shoot in natural PP with the GH5, and shoot in RAW with BM. 

[jonpais]

1 minute ago, Deadcode said:

"How hard can it be to at least make a small effort to try to match the shots from the two cameras. The one on the bottom is from the video, the one on the top a two-second color correction."

For me this comparison felt like they want to make BM look better in most ways. Skintones: bad grade for GH5, Stabilization: "Dont worry, we put it on a gimbal. I mean the BM only," Dynamic range: let's shoot in natural PP with the GH5, and shoot in RAW with BM. 

And to top it all off, I think most forum members already know how much I struggle with color correction. What they did was a total hack job.

[helium]

53 minutes ago, A_Urquhart said:

The same person would have graded the shots in that video. If they are amateurs , this shows that the Pocket 4K was easier to grade for an amateur. Not a bad thing?

It may not be a bad thing -- if in fact the BMPCC 4K can survive incompetent grading -- but based on their only comment on the matter, it sounds as if they "normalized" the log footage by looking at the vectorscope and making adjustments -- not a promising or reliable workflow, for normalizing log footage.  And that was apparently the extent of the grading they did on both shots.

Without more information, it's impossible to say the poor GH5 results aren't the result of incorrect handling. 

[jonpais]

@helium Actually it is possible to say the poor GH5 results are due to incompetence, because the skin tones don't even fall on the vectorscope skin tone line - they're far too magenta, and far too washed out.

11 minutes ago, helium said:

It may not be a bad thing -- if in fact the BMPCC 4K can survive incompetent grading -- but based on their only comment on the matter, it sounds as if they "normalized" the log footage by looking at the vectorscope and making adjustments -- not a promising or reliable workflow, for normalizing log footage.  And that was apparently the extent of the grading they did on both shots.

Without more information, it's impossible to say the poor GH5 results aren't the result of incorrect handling. 

 

[helium]

41 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@helium Actually it is possible to say the poor GH5 results are due to incompetence, because the skin tones don't even fall on the vectorscope skin tone line - they're far too magenta, and far too washed out.

 

Putting skin tones on the line would be a grading choice.  Normalization is a different process -- it takes all the log values and converts them to rec. 709.  If this process wasn't done correctly, skin tones would be off, as would everything else.   But the fact that skin tones aren't on the line doesn't in itself prove that the normalization is off.  The trouble here is that there's no way to evaluate the comparison.  Skin tones may be that bad, pre-grade.  Or they may not.  GH5 skin tones usually incline to green.

[A_Urquhart]

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

Yes. I have a professional obligation to my readers.

It's a shame you don't show any professional duty to the person hosting your comments, by the way.

One day you might realise that a forum is only as good as it's members. It's a two way street.

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

I haven't got a fucking camera, genius boy!

Can't see where I shouted expletives at YOU.

You have no respect for anyone here Andrew.

Goodbye all, it was fun while it lasted

[MurtlandPhoto]

TheSlantedLens is doing a live Q&A right now  if ya'll want to air your grievances 

 

[IronFilm]

 

 

9 hours ago, austinchimp said:

Perhaps it's because when the original Pocket came out the look and feel was so far away from any other small camera, while now it seems to be more of a level playing field.

This. 

Humans struggle to judge things objectively, instead viewing it as relative to its nearest comparisons. 

For instance a similar problem you get it is people get upset and grumpy about how "awful modern day life is", yet from the big picture view, we've never had it better! Even the 90th percentile of us in a 1st World Country are living better off than the Kings of France would in the 1500's

I'll admit though, it is a battle to be happy and content with what you have now instead of lusting after the latest shiny toy. I own the original BMPCC after all, but the more I read this thread the more I want the BMPCC4K.....    *if* I do give into tempting to buy another camera, I'll try to get either the Panasonic G85 which is much cheaper and would actually be more useful for my YouTube vlogging, or a 2nd Sony PMW-F3 which I'm often finding useful as a second matching angle to my current F3.  

 

8 hours ago, mercer said:

Half the people buying the P4K, doesn’t need one and will be disappointed and I’ll happily buy it from them sometime next year... haha.

Half the people...  that includes you and I, right? ?

But yeah, kinda tempted to follow that plan too and buy one next year secondhand. 
However a flaw in that plan is what if they're still only fulfilling pre-order even into early next year....  ha!!
But whatever excuse I need to tell myself to avoid buying one this year!

[IronFilm]

 

 

[Jonesy Jones]

10 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

My guesstimate based off the BM spec sheet is that to maintain the 85mm rail centre point if the rails went through at its halfway point, then the battery pack/base unit would be 75mm high.

Thats actually plenty of room to accommodate a very decent capacity power bank, the additional XLR and some interesting other additions....

What about a 15mm rod/rail that literally is a battery? So like, you have a cage with a handle and rod that a couple accessories attach to. But the rod itself is a battery. Maybe the handle too.

Maybe this is a dumb idea that's already been mentioned. But it just came to me.

[MattH]

2 hours ago, A_Urquhart said:

Sorry, did you take offence to one of my comments? I'm not sure where I was being unprofessional toward you. 

Welcome to the forum.

[Turboguard]

Well guys, as someone who has it, (and works professionally with cameras) I can tell you I love it! That’s it, it’s a beautiful piece of technology and even though I haven’t had time to shoot something bigger than a few ProRes clips in the evenings before bed I totally adore the images it produce. I’m very excited for my 8sinn cage and T5 holder to arrive next week as I have 2 days off to really get to know the camera! 

[kye]

6 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I think most of these newer cameras have got auto WB, auto Exposure down to a tee anymore. So most stuff is coming out popularly exposed. And heck they have more DR now than ever. So in essence it is getting harder to screw stuff up unless you goof up, are in a pretty terrible situation. Even these new Logs, C Log, N Log, F Log are not a crazy Log like say Sony S Log 3 is. So they are more forgiving, for most stuff,  most people shoot. And NLE's have gotten better also. More auto correction stuff available. So it is just easier to get it right, right in camera. Is it as good as it can be, well no. But good enough for most viewers.

People with great editing, grading, coloring skills are Always going to shine on their output. But the gap is getting narrower every year, and the camera gap narrows also.. You could really take some of these new mirrorless cameras and put the guts in a normal Cine body and no one would be the wiser. They are getting that good.

I agree.

Lots of people are saying "this 4K RAW isn't that much better than our best H264 cameras, how disappointing" when I think they should be saying "wow, our H264 cameras weren't completely put to shame by this 4K RAW camera, how things have changed since the BMPCC, and aren't we spoiled for choice now!".

5 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The problem with tests like these is they may as well be a review of the tester's grading skills.

Ever since RAW and LOG first came out we have had the same issue - are we watching badly graded footage or is the camera to blame?

I totally agree.

I watched the 2012 Zacuto camera challenge recently (doing it blind as they suggested) and ended up putting the cameras in three tiers, which I found out afterwards were basically sorting them by price!  The only exception to that was the F65 which I placed in the middle tier instead of the top tier because I didn't like the grade.

I think there are two ways to properly execute a camera comparison - set the cameras to their flattest profile and show the files untouched out of the camera having only done a WB, or use a colour checker and have the NLE grade it for you using the full checker so it can linearise the luminance and adjust primaries and all that stuff.  Otherwise, like you say, we're evaluating their grade and not the camera.

Has anyone compared the P4K to the BMPCC by downscaling the P4K to 1080 and then comparing?  Sharpness and resolution have a lot to do with things being cinematic...

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Jonesy Jones said:

What about a 15mm rod/rail that literally is a battery? So like, you have a cage with a handle and rod that a couple accessories attach to. But the rod itself is a battery. Maybe the handle too.

Maybe this is a dumb idea that's already been mentioned. But it just came to me.

Rods are quite thin and potentially need to support a lot of weight, wouldn't want to risk a battery getting twisted and bent.... 

 

[webrunner5]

38 minutes ago, kye said:

I agree.

Lots of people are saying "this 4K RAW isn't that much better than our best H264 cameras, how disappointing" when I think they should be saying "wow, our H264 cameras weren't completely put to shame by this 4K RAW camera, how things have changed since the BMPCC, and aren't we spoiled for choice now!".

 

Yeah Raw is Always going to win with good grading skills. Look at the Canon ML results. And so is ProRes, especially with company's that have good Color Science. It is the better Codec because it is 10, 12, 14 bit and has a data rate out the wazoo.

I have been seeing better grading from just what seems normal people than BMD themselves seemed to produce in the beginning. Kind of odd to me. So there is hope for this camera. But you better load up with recording media and a shit pot full of batteries. Sort of sounds familiar doesn't it. ?

[kye]

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah Raw is Always going to win with good grading skills. Look at the Canon ML results. And so is ProRes, especially with company's that have good Color Science. It is the better Codec because it is 10, 12, 14 bit and has a data rate out the wazoo. I have been seeing better grading from just what seems normal people than BMD themselves seemed to produce in the beginning. Kind of odd to me. So there is hope for this camera. But you better load up with recording media and a shit pot full of batteries. Sort of sounds familiar doesn't it. ?

Yep.  and for those who are used to shooting in those rec709 profiles and throwing on a LUT in post it's definitely a case of "oh Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore!!" ???

[Emanuel]

11 hours ago, jonpais said:

The color in the Fabrizio & Omayra video is simply gorgeous and the dynamic range is very impressive. 

Yes, but I had to download it to add blur from my PotPlayer...

I'd rather look to 'The Color of Light' video and the focal reducer shots (18-35mm f/1.8).

You feel the difference to thinner MFT glass BTW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXBv7mSrIHo

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/gallery

 

tip to do it with embedded videos from vimeo LOL they embedded it on their webpage but they don't allow others to embed it from YT... these autocratic tics from a company like BMD are killing me : X

download embedded videos on Chrome:
customize and control button on the right corner -> More tools -> Developer tools -> F+Ctrl -> mp4 -> select all & copy -> word processor -> F+Ctrl = resolution chosen -> copy paste link -> click on right to save as wherever you want in your drive as you wish ; -)