Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Turboguard]

6 hours ago, BenEricson said:

Sure, but we’re talking about this camera and those highlights don’t look so nice. The original frame was posted to rave about the DR. I don’t see it. 

I am fairly certain that even a c100 in log would handle that better. 

Ben, I didn’t post any of the shots to rave. I even said that I was intoxicated (probably 10th old fashion at the time I brought out the camera). Did you see the OG post?

[Newway12]

I preordered back in August(B and H), do we have any idea what the wait time will be like? 

[helium]

9 hours ago, BenEricson said:

I can’t believe that the highlights clip that hard on a clip so under exposed. The handling of highlights are what kills this camera for me. The OG pocket had so many flaws but the image was not one of them. 

I think the GH5 might have an upper hand with the baked in color profiles as well. I always impressed with the files straight out of camera with then GH4. Has anybody been messing with shooting non log footage? Can you bake in LUTs to the BMP4K? 

 

It's raised beyond the point of no return, an acceptable grade would require more attention, but are the highlights any better for you here?  

 

[mercer]

So, I’m not really invested in this conversation since it is doubtful I will buy a P4K for a long while, but here’s my 2 cents... 

There are some flaws with this camera that didn’t exist once the OG Pocket matured via FW updates. Those FW updates fixed the original camera. So, I know everybody loves their new P4K and don’t want to mention any downsides but they are there so ignoring them won’t help in the long run. We already know that people from BM check this post, so if you have an issue, scream it from the rooftops, so BM will address it with a FW update... they’re really good at that.

Ben has some valid points. This camera should theoretically murder the GH5, but from what I’ve seen... it doesn’t. The DR is similar or only modestly better. The GH5 actually handles the highlights as well or better and I am seeing something funky with the color... specifically with greens... I don’t know if it is a slight IR pollution?

All in all, I am impressed with the P4K, albeit a little clean and pedestrian for my goals, but this isn’t our spouse we’re talking about here... it’s okay to mention its shortcomings.

[Shirozina]

12 minutes ago, mercer said:

This camera should theoretically murder the GH5, but from what I’ve seen... it doesn’t.

Theoretically it shouldn't as the GH5 outputs a 4k 10bit 4.2.2 400mbps image.

[Kisaha]

I am not sure why everybody keep comparing it with the GH5. The obvious competitor is the GH5S, a heavily video orientated hybrid. 

GH5 is a slightly-video orientated hybrid and the P4K is a video camera.

It is a one trick pony, but there are more people shooting and editing digital video than any other time in recent history.

[mercer]

4 minutes ago, Shirozina said:

Theoretically it shouldn't as the GH5 outputs a 4k 10bit 4.2.2 400mbps image.

Theoretically it should as the GH5 outputs a highly compressed 4K 10bit 4:22 400mbps image.

Even with 1080p only, the OG Pocket murders the GH5, so one would think the P4K would obliterate it. 

[jonpais]

wow. first m43 is dead, now murder and obliteration. forums getting pretty morbid.

3 minutes ago, mercer said:

Theoretically it should as the GH5 outputs a highly compressed 4K 10bit 4:22 400mbps image.

Even with 1080p only, the OG Pocket murders the GH5, so one would think the P4K would obliterate it. 

 

[MattH]

32 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

I am not sure why everybody keep comparing it with the GH5. The obvious competitor is the GH5S, a heavily video orientated hybrid. 

GH5 is a slightly-video orientated hybrid and the P4K is a video camera.

It is a one trick pony, but there are more people shooting and editing digital video than any other time in recent history.

It's probably because a lot of people already have a GH5 so the question is do you get a Pocket 4k instead.  If the difference isn't anything that cant be overcome then the answer for most of these people will be no. (This probably also goes if you already have a GH5s but because its newer, far fewer people will be in this position) 

If you are choosing a new camera from scratch then the Blackmagic starts to make more sense.  But In this second case if things like a flipy screen and viewfinder appeal to you, it's likely that ibis will apeal to you also.   ibis is the GH5's trump card over the pocket 4k.  Get rid of that, like with the GH5s and it struggles to come out on top.

[helium]

50 minutes ago, mercer said:

So, I’m not really invested in this conversation since it is doubtful I will buy a P4K for a long while, but here’s my 2 cents... 

There are some flaws with this camera that didn’t exist once the OG Pocket matured via FW updates. Those FW updates fixed the original camera. So, I know everybody loves their new P4K and don’t want to mention any downsides but they are there so ignoring them won’t help in the long run. We already know that people from BM check this post, so if you have an issue, scream it from the rooftops, so BM will address it with a FW update... they’re really good at that.

Ben has some valid points. This camera should theoretically murder the GH5, but from what I’ve seen... it doesn’t. The DR is similar or only modestly better. The GH5 actually handles the highlights as well or better and I am seeing something funky with the color... specifically with greens... I don’t know if it is a slight IR pollution?

All in all, I am impressed with the P4K, albeit a little clean and pedestrian for my goals, but this isn’t our spouse we’re talking about here... it’s okay to mention its shortcomings.

So you're not really interested in the conversation, but simply must offer up your two cents anyway, which is that BMD had better drop everything until the BMPCC 4K murders the GH5 -- murder coming up, next firmware release! -- because you're not satisfied with the difference between the two cameras, based on what you've seen on youtube.  

Between a host with all the self-control of 5 -year old, and a readership which evaluates cameras based on hearsay and computer monitors, this place is really something.   

In other words, another one bites the dust.  Goodbye, and good luck.

[mercer]

13 minutes ago, helium said:

So you're not really interested in the conversation, but simply must offer up your two cents anyway, which is that BMD had better drop everything until the BMPCC 4K murders the GH5 -- murder coming up, next firmware release! -- because you're not satisfied with the difference between the two cameras, based on what you've seen on youtube.  

Between a host with all the self-control of 5 -year old, and a readership which evaluates cameras based on hearsay and computer monitors, this place is really something.   

In other words, another one bites the dust.  Goodbye, and good luck.

See ya, your almighty, holier than thou, “professional” attitude was annoying to read anyway.

If you were looking for blind adoration, this definitely isn’t the place for you... there are plenty of ...user sites around for that.

But out of curiosity, how else are people to evaluate an image if not where the artist chose to present it?

I guess I should go out and buy a camera I don’t need, just so I can have an opinion. 

Note taken. 

[MattH]

34 minutes ago, helium said:

So you're not really interested in the conversation, but simply must offer up your two cents anyway, which is that BMD had better drop everything until the BMPCC 4K murders the GH5 -- murder coming up, next firmware release! -- because you're not satisfied with the difference between the two cameras, based on what you've seen on youtube.  

Between a host with all the self-control of 5 -year old, and a readership which evaluates cameras based on hearsay and computer monitors, this place is really something.   

In other words, another one bites the dust.  Goodbye, and good luck.

He said he is 'not invested' in the conversation, not 'not interested'.   So he's saying he's not realy in the market for the camera but if he was this is what he would think.  I think its a good idea to make a list of all the flaws that could be resolved with firmware.  Someone who has the camera could compile it and post an updated list every once in a while.

Ability to focus by USB would be one thing,

Being able to disable the automatic iris button so you cant accidentally press it.

100% clipping zebras that go off the raw sensor data.

[mercer]

3 minutes ago, MattH said:

He said he is 'not invested' in the conversation, not 'not interested'.   So he's saying he's not realy in the market for the camera but if he was this is what he would think.  I think its a good idea to make a list of all the flaws that could be resolved with firmware.  Someone who has the camera could compile it and post an updated list every once in a while.

Thank you! I didn’t come to this topic to be a dick. I am working on a few short scripts (and features) so of course I’m interested in the P4K, but from what I’ve seen so far, I’m not convinced. However, I am glad that the people that bought it are happy with it. I just hate this mob mentality to attack any person that dislikes a camera, or even dares to question it... it’s like Grant Petty is offering free old fashioneds to anyone that sticks up for the P4K.

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

wow. first m43 is dead, now murder and obliteration. forums getting pretty morbid.

 

Yeah, a little hyperbole in my word choices.

[Andrew Reid]

The Pocket 4K has a lot of interesting features, of course, but somebody needs to do a proper comparison of 8bit, 10bit, ProRes, LOG, RAW, etc. Because the image quality is closer between them than people realise, when it comes to the end-result.

I've had Blackmagic cameras in the past, and it's fun pulling around a raw file in Resolve and seeing all that dynamic range on demand, but then I have also had a lot of enjoyment out of 8bit S-LOG and Canon LOG too. Seeing how silky smooth, noise-less the shadows are in low light from a full frame sensor, being able to fluidly play it back and slap on a LUT over Canon 1D C footage - wow - you wouldn't know THAT was 8bit. Instantly nice colour and dynamic range. Same with Hybrid LOG Gamma from an A7 III, or V-LOG with the GH5 and F-LOG on an X-T3. Even the EOS R, for all its faults, has an amazing ALL-I codec with film-like colour - and it's 8bit.

We are trading a lot of things on the Pocket 4K for that RAW codec. 10bit too, but others offer that now, so it's not unique to Blackmagic. Out goes a large sensor, out goes decent video AF, out goes IBIS, out goes articulated screen, battery life, high quality body, weather sealing and more besides. So it is important not to over hype it, as some have been doing on this thread. I have nothing against the Blackmagic Pocket 4K, but it has to be seen objectively.

I do have a little bit of annoyance pent up at the company, for their lame availability and non-support of EOSHD despite the tons of work I have done over the years to bring people's knowledge up to speed on their cameras and Resolve, but I am not going to let that influence the review once I finally get one.

Still no luck on that front BTW.

[JordanWright]

Yeah cameras coming into the UK seems very slow. 

[mercer]

I think 10bit is good for a bump in perceived DR. It helps with color tonality on objects of the same or similar colors... for instance the shadows in leaves or a slight different hue of green. This seems to give it a thicker, more 3D look. So it’s definitely a positive but even 8bit Canon color from the C100 with CLog or 8bit Nikon Flat can give a similar, albeit different, end result. Surely you will notice it with Raw video the way it will pick up textures with the higher color data.

[grex]

49 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

The Pocket 4K has a lot of interesting features, of course, but somebody needs to do a proper comparison of 8bit, 10bit, ProRes, LOG, RAW, etc. Because the image quality is closer between them than people realise, when it comes to the end-result.

I've had Blackmagic cameras in the past, and it's fun pulling around a raw file in Resolve and seeing all that dynamic range on demand, but then I have also had a lot of enjoyment out of 8bit S-LOG and Canon LOG too. Seeing how silky smooth, noise-less the shadows are in low light from a full frame sensor, being able to fluidly play it back and slap on a LUT over Canon 1D C footage - wow - you wouldn't know THAT was 8bit. Instantly nice colour and dynamic range. Same with Hybrid LOG Gamma from an A7 III, or V-LOG with the GH5 and F-LOG on an X-T3. Even the EOS R, has an amazing codec with film-like colour - and it's 8bit.

We are trading a lot of things on the Pocket 4K for that codec. Out goes a large sensor, out goes decent video AF, out goes IBIS, out goes articulated screen, battery life, high quality body, weather sealing and more besides. So it is important not to over hype it, as some have been doing on this thread. I have nothing against the Blackmagic Pocket 4K, but it has to be seen objectively.

I do have a little bit of annoyance pent up at the company, for their lame availability and non-support of EOSHD despite the tons of work I have done over the years to bring people's knowledge up to speed on their cameras and Resolve, but I am not going to let that influence the review once I finally get one.

Still no luck on that front BTW.

Great response Andrew.

I am actually coming from an Sony A7RIII and am considering the pocket 4K, primarily because of the RAW, BRAW and high color depth since i am also into VFX work. I do color grade and appreciate great color science although color science can be subjective. I personally prefer the creamy, saturated less clinical look of the Alexa. On that note, I've had major difficulty with slog 2 skin tones. Trying to isolate skin in resolve in order to correct it in 8 bit has been a nightmare. HLG just seems like i'm sacrificing dynamic range.

I also thought with the invention of focal reducers, having the full frame look was achievable on a M43 camera? Are you against this?

So in terms of color science and color depth for my particular needs is the pocket 4K a waste? Can i achieve just as good results with an A7RIII? Is the added benefit that minimal? Anyone can chime in on this.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, Andrew Reid said:

We are trading a lot of things on the Pocket 4K for that RAW codec. 10bit too, but others offer that now, so it's not unique to Blackmagic. Out goes a large sensor, out goes decent video AF, out goes IBIS, out goes articulated screen, battery life, high quality body, weather sealing and more besides. So it is important not to over hype it, as some have been doing on this thread. I have nothing against the Blackmagic Pocket 4K, but it has to be seen objectively.

I do have a little bit of annoyance pent up at the company, for their lame availability and non-support of EOSHD despite the tons of work I have done over the years to bring people's knowledge up to speed on their cameras and Resolve, but I am not going to let that influence the review once I finally get one.

Still no luck on that front BTW.

Andrew, mate, you did, I did... you probably even have no clue on the fact they are completely aware of all that. PR / marketing as they call it and sales department too at the higher level of their hierarchy, Grant Petty included.

I've been in touch with them crossing different chains on the phone, trade of emails, giving them acute but also positive criticism. Unfortunately, seems they don't take it as welcome as it should. Can't obviously make them public but I am not satisfied either. I have a reputable organisation asking for 28 camera units and they are unable to understand their own role on the process. Bummer.

RED could be expensive and all that. But I had Jim Jannard and Jarred themselves to establish proper communication. Never asked they could behave as friends or my own family but that's what I can say a dozen of years later about them instead (E : -)

[Anaconda_]

20 minutes ago, grex said:

I personally prefer the creamy, saturated less clinical look of the Alexa.

Controversial ?

[grex]

Just now, Anaconda_ said:

Controversial ?

I know right? i should have left my personal opinion out of it. lol