Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Slothorp]

Last test : 
 

 

[A_Urquhart]

  On 10/13/2018 at 9:04 PM, Anaconda_ said:

Sorry about the detour then...

Can the GH5 shoot 60p at 180 with no flicker?

 

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Not in a 50hz country.

  On 10/13/2018 at 9:35 PM, Slothorp said:

Last test : 
 

 

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Hmmm, not liking the look of that. 

I haven't done any shooting into red lights at night but will have to test it out tonight. If it's a common P4K issue, hopefully it can be fixed with firmware.

[CaptainHook]

The overexposed super saturated LEDs are clipping the gamut. This will happen with Gen 4 on 4.6K too. You can reduce the issue by soft clipping the gamut using the colour space transform Resolve FX plugin. Here I am using the Broadcast gamut because the Pocket 4K option isn't in the colour space transform plugin at this time but they are actually the same gamut/primaries anyway.



Without soft clipping the gamut:

[MattH]

  On 10/13/2018 at 9:35 PM, Slothorp said:

Last test : 
 

 

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It would be good to see the same situation in prores.   Shooting raw actually bypasses the majority of what the camera can do to fix the image, so criticising a raw image is really just criticising only the sensor, not the cameras handling of it.  (which is another reason why blackmagic raw should be great as it could include image fixes).

Specifically,  try prores film at 1000 iso or 6400 iso exposed properly and then try reducing the exposure if the effect is still there.

I wonder if a filter to lower only the reds would work? A green filter? And then adjust back the colors.  Or maybe a diffusion filter.

[Chrad]

  On 10/13/2018 at 11:59 PM, A_Urquhart said:

Not in a 50hz country.

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The shutter can't be at 180, but you can fine tune it till the flicker disappears with the Synchro Scan feature.

[A_Urquhart]

  On 10/14/2018 at 3:39 AM, Chrad said:

The shutter can't be at 180, but you can fine tune it till the flicker disappears with the Synchro Scan feature.

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I'm no expert on the GH5 (never used it) but yes, I think the synchro scan feature would just adjust the shutter speed in finer increments than usual to find one that works with the lights you are using. So yeah, your shutter would not be at 180 anymore.

  On 10/14/2018 at 12:19 AM, CaptainHook said:

The overexposed super saturated LEDs are clipping the gamut. This will happen with Gen 4 on 4.6K too. You can reduce the issue by soft clipping the gamut using the colour space transform Resolve FX plugin. Here I am using the Broadcast gamut because the Pocket 4K option isn't in the colour space transform plugin at this time but they are actually the same gamut/primaries anyway.



Without soft clipping the gamut:

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Thanks Captain Hook, that looks much better.

[Xavier Plagaro Mussard]

If you buy a RAW camera, then you must CC properly. Those red "problems" seem more a CC problem, than a camera problem. 

[Slothorp]

Don't think that it is merely a CC problem, because the reds clip even in an ungraded image where all the others colors are muted. I am glad and relieved that you can solve the problem with the solution provided by Captain Hook. It works, and it works well when you shoot in raw. But if you shoot with a baked lut in prores, it will be much more difficult to bypass it, because the saturation mapping will possibly affect all your image. 
If you observe it carefully, you can see that the reds clipping can be found in most of the clips in youtube, when there is a city night scene. Most of the times, it is not totally disturbing, because those scenes are rare enough. But if I have to shoot a film that takes place at night in a city, I know I can't really shoot it in prores, for now, with this camera. 
 

[sanveer]

  On 10/14/2018 at 12:19 AM, CaptainHook said:

The overexposed super saturated LEDs are clipping the gamut. This will happen with Gen 4 on 4.6K too. You can reduce the issue by soft clipping the gamut using the colour space transform Resolve FX plugin. Here I am using the Broadcast gamut because the Pocket 4K option isn't in the colour space transform plugin at this time but they are actually the same gamut/primaries anyway.



Without soft clipping the gamut:

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It looks a little like the famous Orbs issues with Blackmagic cinema camera, that many initial users reported, till Blackmagic finallynaddressed it with a firmware issue. 

[matthere]

 

[Chrad]

  On 10/13/2018 at 8:05 PM, deezid said:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1lYduNOHyHSZj_SZPlRy96GJdZUFj8L6Z

A short dynamic range comparison by @tidefilm
Matched the source files (the shadows of the GH5s are completely desaturated) and added a bit of blur to take away the edge.

Please download the file. The Pocket 4K smokes the GH5s in this test, it's not even fair. Not only no sharpening but also way cleaner. The GH5s shows some horizontal noise patterns (was shot at 25p)

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I definitely prefer the softer, less digital look of the P4K image, really nice. The noise levels are mostly due to playing to the weaknesses of the GH5s though, by underexposing in V-Log.

[Andrew Reid]

  On 10/14/2018 at 12:34 PM, matthere said:

 

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Finally we learn some things.

I liked his Japan footage especially the original BMPCC stuff. I find the comments interesting about the cleaner, sharper look of the new camera and missing the grain texture of the original. Maybe cameras should start to have a 'low-fi' mode or a more analogue mode which tunes down the modern look. It would save a lot of work in post. Digital Bolex still one of my favourite looks in that respect, it's even less clean and digital looking than the original BMPCC.

So the 4K/60P in RAW only goes to 10 seconds to the best CFast 2.0 and Samsung T5, so looks like we'll have to wait for BMRAW to get longer record times in that. The data rates are just too big for the current media in DNG.

[Emanuel]

Indeed. Helpful FAQ video. AF related too. I know a few of you spend hours of discussion on some pixel peeping when to my perspective, AF and IBIS are the crucial points of a $1-1.5 device.

These cameras are or should be designed to be operated for a single shooter at any rate or some other doesn't mean much else : ) We are in 4Q 2018... : -)

  On 10/13/2018 at 9:04 PM, Anaconda_ said:

Sorry about the detour then...

Can the GH5 shoot 60p at 180 with no flicker?

@Emanuel nice link - but I still feel like you're opening holes to make mistakes in by choosing 60p. All you're gaining is slightly slower footage, but in my opinion it's costing a lot both on the shoot and in the edit. You need to ensure your shutter speed is right (with 50p anything will work regarding the flicker), and you're locked into slow motion.

If you're making a documentary it's very hard to tell how you want to use our footage until you're editing it. At 60p you can't do any ramping or play with it at all really.

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I think this may immediately answer you or anyone else shooting under those conditions:

: -)

[A_Urquhart]

  On 10/14/2018 at 2:12 PM, Andrew Reid said:

So the 4K/60P in RAW only goes to 10 seconds to the best CFast 2.0 and Samsung T5, so looks like we'll have to wait for BMRAW to get longer record times in that. The data rates are just too big for the current media in DNG.

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You can record 4k60p in RAW on the Pocket4k with no problems. You just need to use 3:1 or 4:1 RAW, so no need to wait for BRAW (another compressed RAW format).

I really don't know anyone who needs uncompressed RAW though. The Red Weapon doesn't do uncompressed RAW at all, only compressed at 2:1 and up. Is there anyone here that would say the Weapon is not good enough for them?

IF the Pocket4K's USB port is USB3.1 Gen 2, then maybe we'll see an external drive like an NMVE drive, be able to record uncompressed but again, you really don't need it.

Generally, you need two SSD's working as a RAID configuration to get uncompressed RAW. The Convergent Design Odyssey can only record uncompressed RAW CDNG  at 4K60p when there are SSD's in both slots and your files end up needing to be merged afterwards. Wile it's not technically a RAID config, it does send every second frame to the second SSD as the data rates are just too high for a single SSD to handle. Same as Ursa Mini Pro, you need two CFast Cards in the camera for Uncompressed at 60p

 

  On 10/14/2018 at 3:03 PM, Emanuel said:

These cameras are or should be designed to be operated for a single shooter at any rate or some other doesn't mean much else : ) We are in 4Q 2018... : -)

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Maybe 2018 has made people soft. I don't know when it started that people had to have Autofocus and IBIS to be able to shoot on their own. Remember the Canon 5D that started this whole DSLR video revolution, it didn't have usable AF in video mode or IBIS and we all shot fine with that.

[Emanuel]

  On 10/14/2018 at 7:11 PM, A_Urquhart said:

Maybe 2018 has made people soft. I don't know when it started that people had to have Autofocus and IBIS to be able to shot on their own. Remember the Canon 5D that started this whole DSLR video revolution, it didn't have usable AF in video mode or IBIS and we all shot fine with that.

Here is an image of someone operating a camera with no AF and no IBIS, on their own. 

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Indeed but when that 5DII popped up? (you even look like to repeat some post I had posted here before LOL) Let me see... 4Q 2008?

We're speaking about what here, actually and more exactly?

Tripod or slider shots? Is that?

How much is the price range of that cinema camera BTW? Because it was mentioned US$ 1-1.5 grand, the same for the top smartphone offering all that PDAF has implemented from some time earlier than 4Q 2018.

 

You know something? Something that really pisses me off is when we, me included if/when happens (hey, I am not perfect either! LMAO : ) tend to forget a point because we have something of our inner own -- like an investment we did, no matter how small it is... just to protect or to massage our self esteem ; ) This is not honest : ) I am not glad to feel like to have to write it anywhere, go figure here, but we're trading a subjective interest for a fact. Doesn't serve the truth or the reality of the facts. Reason why fanboys end to get a pejorative meaning over these and other boards, I'm afraid.

But you have there good tap to focus, as far as it is reported from that video I commented... so, why bother with my AF remark? : X

If it is because I've mentioned that. Let me tell you starting to present my disclaimer that for three years during my film school going along with 16mm film, I had to be focus puller without clue if me and my colleagues, we'd have the whole school to praise or curse our skills when the 'collective footage' was used to be pixel peeped @ big screen, just arrived from lab rushes.

Moreover, what for that cap on the operator's head with the RED up there? : D As much helpful as AF or IBIS for handheld shooting, I presume...?!

C'mon... give me you all of those old school lovers a break because I've already given to him @wolf33d on his usual point whenever a new release comes, pretty fair BTW : -)

[grex]

  On 10/14/2018 at 7:11 PM, A_Urquhart said:

You can record 4k60p in RAW on the Pocket4k with no problems. You just need to use 3:1 or 4:1 RAW, so no need to wait for BRAW (another compressed RAW format).

I really don't know anyone who needs uncompressed RAW though. The Red Weapon doesn't do uncompressed RAW at all, only compressed at 2:1 and up. Is there anyone here that would say the Weapon is not good enough for them?

IF the Pocket4K's USB port is USB3.1 Gen 2, then maybe we'll see an external drive like an NMVE drive, be able to record uncompressed but again, you really don't need it.

Generally, you need two SSD's working as a RAID configuration to get uncompressed RAW. The Convergent Design Odyssey can only record uncompressed RAW CDNG  at 4K60p when there are SSD's in both slots and your files end up needing to be merged afterwards. Wile it's not technically a RAID config, it does send every second frame to the second SSD as the data rates are just too high for a single SSD to handle. Same as Ursa Mini Pro, you need two CFast Cards in the camera for Uncompressed at 60p

 

Maybe 2018 has made people soft. I don't know when it started that people had to have Autofocus and IBIS to be able to shoot on their own. Remember the Canon 5D that started this whole DSLR video revolution, it didn't have usable AF in video mode or IBIS and we all shot fine with that.

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I have to agree with you on the autofocus and IBIS. Now that all these gimbal manufacturers are beginning to offer wireless follow focus motors for cheap these systems take care of these 2 issues. The only reason I would need autofocus and IBIS is if I am traveling and don’t want to bring a gimbal or I just feel like being lazy and would rather hand hold the camera. For those reasons I would just bring my A7RIII. 

I know most people will say why have 2 cameras when you can have all these features in 1 camera but I haven’t see this perfect camera yet. 

[Emanuel]

  On 10/14/2018 at 7:56 PM, grex said:

I have to agree with you on the autofocus and IBIS. Now that all these gimbal manufacturers are beginning to offer wireless follow focus motors for cheap these systems take care of these 2 issues. The only reason I would need autofocus and IBIS is if I am traveling and don’t want to bring a gimbal or I just feel like being lazy and would rather hand hold the camera. For those reasons I would just bring my A7RIII. 

I know most people will say why have 2 cameras when you can have all these features in 1 camera but I haven’t see this perfect camera yet. 

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Ah so there's also travelers not to be forgotten here... ; ) Let me see, the best camera is that one you have with you, isn't it? Or should we infer we have to resign on our phone camera for that? ; -)

[grex]

  On 10/14/2018 at 8:03 PM, Emanuel said:

Ah so there's also travelers not to be forgotten here... ; ) Let me see, the best camera is that one you have with you, isn't it? Or should we infer we have to resign on our phone camera for that? ; -)

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Best camera for the job i suppose. If i need something professional i will deck out the Pocket 4K with whatever i require for that project (follow focus, gimbal, etc) i enjoy modularity and the fact that this camera starts off small and can be built up to your needs), if i'm on a family vacation and want to travel light while running after my kids then i'll go for convenience (IBIS, Autofocus). I don't think iPhones are up to the quality standards we are looking for as of yet.

[A_Urquhart]

  On 10/14/2018 at 7:44 PM, Emanuel said:

Tripod or slider shots? Is that?

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No, people have been handholding cameras for many years.

 

  On 10/14/2018 at 7:44 PM, Emanuel said:

How much is the price range of that cinema camera BTW? Because it was mentioned US$ 1-1.5 grand, the same for the top smartphone offering all that PDAF has implemented from some time earlier than 4Q 2018.

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Does a phone shoot the quality of images the Pocket4K can? A smartphone has PDAF and an Array Alexa at over $70,000 doesn't. So what? I just don't get these arguments. If a phone has what you require, use it. Don't buy the pocket4. Pretty simple really isn't it?

  On 10/14/2018 at 7:44 PM, Emanuel said:

You know something? Something that really pisses me off is when we, me included if/when happens (hey, I am not perfect either! LMAO : ) tend to forget a point because we have something of our inner own -- like an investment we did, no matter how small it is... just to protect or to massage our self esteem

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I have multiple cameras from three different manufacturers. I bought them each for their individual strengths. I did my research knowing what I needed and didn't need. I have no self esteem to protect here. I knew that the Pocket4K didn't have IBIS and wouldn't have a good, usable continuous autofocus system. No blackmagic camera ever has.  I haven't just found this out and now feel the need to defend my decision. Is this really how people are these days?

I know I can focus a camera manually, I know that when I am shooting on my own, I can attach a lens with OS or carry a tripod/monopod if need be or even shoot from the hip on a cine saddle.  

The price of the camera makes no difference, but if you need IBIS and AF, buy a camera that meets your needs. The pocket4k never claimed to have IBIS or usable continuous autofocus so I don't understand the disappointment here. 

  On 10/14/2018 at 8:03 PM, Emanuel said:

Ah so there's also travelers not to be forgotten here... ; ) Let me see, the best camera is that one you have with you, isn't it? Or should we infer we have to resign on our phone camera for that? ; -)

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If you wan't a travel camera, buy one that was designed for that purpose. I travel and take family photos/video with my Fuji X-T2. Sure, I could take family/travel videos with the Pocket4k but I don't like taking multiple cameras with me on holidays so I make the decision to sacrifice a little image quality for convenience. 

[Emanuel]

No disappointment with this camera at all. I am actually with both of you @A_Urquhart @grex in your choice : D

Maybe only with a brand which is still lazy in several aspects and old school when market is trending somewhere else.

Thanks for your entries and civil reply BTW, much appreciated, really (E : -)