Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[The ghost of squig]

5 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Will this be effective?

Nope. Like @deezid said: "I really hope BMD adds a setting allowing spatial noise filtering to be turned off. In this example the grain would become smaller at least and less blocky."

Otherwise I can see a Z6 with ProRes raw landing on my desk sometime soon.

[Emanuel]

7 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

That link only made me more certain that it's a made up problem. Don't you have a link to anything showing that it is a "well known" or at least "known" issue with cDNG? 

That thread is about Braw so it's not a good example. Also if it's well known there should be plenty of threads and videos.

I understand your point and tend to concur. I just didn't do any test. And I found worrying some other people to involve cDNG too. Without mention, I am not a frequent user of BMD forums so I am not certain some other people hadn't noticed yet.

[Anaconda_]

@The ghost of squig - What he's saying, is the macro blocking in blue skies is only present if you have your project set up incorrectly, and the blocking you see in Resolve won't be present in your final export. It sounds to me similar to turning on Proxies, the software plays a lesser quality version of the file for smooth playback while editing... Before you rule out shooting blue skies, why don't you specifically shoot them, adjust your settings to fit your file and then do your own tests. 

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

Posted a couple of hours ago... Will this be really effective?

I only copied the relevant part, but he also said it's nothing new, suggesting it's something people may be overlooking when posting their grabs... I've not had a chance to really test it, but shot a lot over the weekend where it was way too hot here, so going to double check and see how it works for me. Personally though, I've never been bothered by any macro blocking, so I'm the wrong person to be testing and pixel peeping. 

[The ghost of squig]

6 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

@The ghost of squig - What he's saying, is the macro blocking in blue skies is only present if you have your project set up incorrectly, and the blocking you see in Resolve won't be present in your final export. It sounds to me similar to turning on Proxies, the software plays a lesser quality version of the file for smooth playback while editing... Before you rule out shooting blue skies, why don't you specifically shoot them, adjust your settings to fit your file and then do your own tests.

The screenshots I posted are from the final export.

[Andrew Reid]

I haven't yet updated my Blackmagic Pocket 4K to BRAW as I wanted to keep hold of Cinema DNG.

I respect the BRAWly codec but I am kind of in love with the image I get from CDNG and not just on Blackmagic cameras... It is very filmic.

Grain and texture is too often gone on modern, efficient codecs. I want to dive in and see that, it makes me feel like I am dealing with a real analogue image not a digital fake.

In fact nothing helps banding in a blue sky more than giving the codec something to do in plain areas like that... Fine grain gives it something to hang onto, and it even helps dither subtle tones together.

I had 10bit banding before on the FS5 before Sony did a firmware update... Despite their PR wishy washy meetings with me where they forced some poor old programmers to sit in a room with me, I really don't think they fixed the codec... Rather, they fixed the inter-frame noise reduction. Does the Blackmagic Pocket 4K have inter-frame noise reduction going on in BRAW? If so, this might explain the macro blocking.

PS - I understand the legal reasons for Blackmagic not wanting to continue with CDNG and fully support their reasoning behind BRAW and the benefits of a BRAW workflow (although I am perfectly happy with ProRes for fast editing to be honest)... So I can appreciate why it's never coming back, but does the Pocket 4K have the ability to swap firmware versions between new and old or can it only go one way and once you lose CDNG can you never get it back?

[Lars Steenhoff]

54 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

does the Pocket 4K have the ability to swap firmware versions between new and old or can it only go one way and once you lose CDNG can you never get it back?

On your camera you can switch back to the old firmware

On newer models that came with the BRAW installed you cannot switch back.

[The ghost of squig]

36 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

PS - I understand the legal reasons for Blackmagic not wanting to continue with CDNG and fully support their reasoning behind BRAW and the benefits of a BRAW workflow (although I am perfectly happy with ProRes for fast editing to be honest)... So I can appreciate why it's never coming back, but does the Pocket 4K have the ability to swap firmware versions between new and old or can it only go one way and once you lose CDNG can you never get it back?

Apparently cameras with CDNG can be downgraded back to CDNG, and cameras like mine that come with 6.21 can't be downgraded. Would I want to risk upgrading to Braw if I had a CDNG camera? Probably not. I think it was poor form from BMD not being upfront about the newer cameras not being backwards compatible with the CDNG firmware. If it weren't for this noise reduction/macroblocking issue I'd be content with Braw, but right now I'm thinking where else is it going to show up besides blue skies?

[deezid]

26 minutes ago, Lars Steenhoff said:

On newer models that came with the BRAW installed you cannot switch back.

The problem with my unit indeed.
Got a nicer display though with accurate colors...

[The ghost of squig]

I had a look at one of the CDNG blue sky examples on the BMD forum, it looks just as bad as Braw.

[majoraxis]

I returned the the Blackmagic Pocket 4K I purchased as it could not be reverted to the firmware version with BRAW. I purchased an USRA Mini Pro G1 instead as it can do Cinema DNG where the the USRS G2 can not and the G1 was a so much cheaper used at the time.  I anticipate that the USRA Mini Pro G1 and the BM Pocket 4K with the hardware revision that can do Cinema DNG will hold their value and be in demand for some time to come.

[The ghost of squig]

5 minutes ago, majoraxis said:

I returned the the Blackmagic Pocket 4K I purchased as it could not be reverted to the firmware version with BRAW. I purchased an USRA Mini Pro G1 instead as it can do Cinema DNG where the the USRS G2 can not and the G1 was a so much cheaper used at the time.  I anticipate that the USRA Mini Pro G1 and the BM Pocket 4K with the hardware revision that can do Cinema DNG will hold their value and be in demand for some time to come.

Does the Ursa Mini Pro G1 come with the blue sky pixelation feature? Believe me, you're going to want to have that.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, The ghost of squig said:

I had a look at one of the CDNG blue sky examples on the BMD forum, it looks just as bad as Braw.

I told you. It really puzzles me. Why? We'd need they may address the issue. It's rather disappointing. Without mention to lack some objectiveness to clarify it.

I also can't be glad why a few models are cDNG capable, others don't. As far as reported because of a new display and its firmware, but this camera was announced with the possibility to hold cDNG when it is not even consensual braw is wide accepted as raw format. Despite its usefulness, ratio IQ and value. So we have now two distinct cameras as matter of fact? A Mark II or better to call it Minus Mark I too...? Is this acceptable? Ethical? Many fair doubts and complaints by customers and adopters can be raised for the subject matter. Who can blame such claim?

 

 

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

I haven't yet updated my Blackmagic Pocket 4K to BRAW as I wanted to keep hold of Cinema DNG.

I respect the BRAWly codec but I am kind of in love with the image I get from CDNG and not just on Blackmagic cameras... It is very filmic.

Grain and texture is too often gone on modern, efficient codecs. I want to dive in and see that, it makes me feel like I am dealing with a real analogue image not a digital fake.

In fact nothing helps banding in a blue sky more than giving the codec something to do in plain areas like that... Fine grain gives it something to hang onto, and it even helps dither subtle tones together.

I had 10bit banding before on the FS5 before Sony did a firmware update... Despite their PR wishy washy meetings with me where they forced some poor old programmers to sit in a room with me, I really don't think they fixed the codec... Rather, they fixed the inter-frame noise reduction. Does the Blackmagic Pocket 4K have inter-frame noise reduction going on in BRAW? If so, this might explain the macro blocking.

PS - I understand the legal reasons for Blackmagic not wanting to continue with CDNG and fully support their reasoning behind BRAW and the benefits of a BRAW workflow (although I am perfectly happy with ProRes for fast editing to be honest)... So I can appreciate why it's never coming back, but does the Pocket 4K have the ability to swap firmware versions between new and old or can it only go one way and once you lose CDNG can you never get it back?

 

This was posted by majoraxis in your forum 15 pages back one month and a half ago:

 

You can also find more information here:

https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90870

 

Unfortunately, this is effectively not a minor downgrade, hence the major disappointment not only pointed by me but many others...

 

[amanieux]

"I doubt Cinema DNG by itself was the legal issue, but maybe the combination of Cinema DNG technology and the camera processing for it infringed one of RED’s patents"

since then blackmagic  also updated the ursa mini g2 firmware and cinema dng was not removed in the g2 so this legal issue seems to be pure BS. they most likely removed if from the cheap bmpcc4k either to harmonize their cinema camera line in terms of specs/price ratio or they want to push usage of BRAW over cinema dng. why can't they just give the real explanation so we can have an idea of their strategy and make informed choices in term of what software to learn or what camera to buy.

[levisdavis]

BM sure did hype BRAW didn't they.  Experienced this 3-months ago and wondered why this could ever get passed QC.  ( Not my camera.  Updated from CDNG to BRAW before the shoot as a means to maximize recording space. ) Went up to Monument Valley for an interview + b-roll for a documentary project.

Safe to say that BM lost a camera customer 3-months ago.  Respectfully, I had no idea BM could be so unaccountable.  They went on record stating there was no difference between CDNG and BRAW.  This was backed by beta testers as well; something I appreciated and respected before making the firmware update.

* Note that this project setting is native 4K 4096x2160 resolution, full resolution playback, and the media is not optimized.  Also, the last image is un-graded.

 

[Video Hummus]

On 6/24/2019 at 5:41 PM, Papiskokuji said:

It’s a shame because it’s the first time he takes some risks to express his artistic/technical skills and I appreciate the effort.

Or clearly the camera sucks if he couldn’t capture what he saw that day?

Or maybe we shouldn’t post anything we make unless it’s as good as [insert your favorite cinematographer] (because we don’t all agree on that either).

Not defending his work (I’ve posted as shitty stuff as well) just kinda disappointed in the attitudes.

[majoraxis]

 

3 hours ago, amanieux said:

blackmagic  also updated the ursa mini g2 firmware and cinema dng was not removed in the g2

@amanieux I'm not sure if this is correct.  I think the non-beta public release of the first G2 compatible firm was with Blackmagic Camera 6.3 update. In the Blackmagic Camera 6.2 update it states:

What's new for URSA Mini Pro 4.6K Removed CinemaDNG formats

So there would have to be a firmware version earlier that 6.2 that is compatible with the G2 to allows it to also use of Cinema DNG.

Of note:  For the USRA Mini Pro G1 the Blackmagic Camera 6.0 update supports both CinemaDNG and BRAW and add ISO 3200 as well as generation 4 color science to Blackmagic viewfinder. Blackmagic Camera 6.1 update also should have the same functionality, but this update did not change anything for the USRA Mini Pro according to the read me.  6.1 was out in 05 Feb 2019, and the G2 was not even announced until March 5, 2019.

All of the information I can find indicates that the USRA Mini Pro G2 never had Cinema DNG, which is probably good news for Pocket 4k owners as Blackmagic will want to improve BRAW performance on their flag ship product and it will trickle down to Pocket 4K.

 

[The ghost of squig]

6 hours ago, levisdavis said:

BM sure did hype BRAW didn't they.  Experienced this 3-months ago and wondered why this could ever get passed QC. 

Safe to say that BM lost a camera customer 3-months ago.  Respectfully, I had no idea BM could be so unaccountable.  They went on record stating there was no difference between CDNG and BRAW.  This was backed by beta testers as well; something I appreciated and respected before making the firmware update.

These thoughts have crossed my mind. Beta testers sign NDAs, they're gagged. With 4K raw video there's an expectation that it will produce frames that look not unlike 4K still frames. I recall one beta tester whose judgement I trust saying he couldn't break the codec. I thought BMD was different, my bad. Fool me once...

[Andrew Reid]

Does the firmware rollback if you have the old Cinema DNG version?

[JordanWright]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Does the firmware rollback if you have the old Cinema DNG version?

Yep, you can install previous firmware if you have the old version

[Emanuel]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Does the firmware rollback if you have the old Cinema DNG version?

I don't understand what you want to mean? : ) You can replace one version for the other one. Both ways. Only for those units which already had cDNG from factory.