Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[drm]

On 10/3/2019 at 6:12 PM, kye said:

I know it was mentioned before, but the Z-Cam E2 seems to be a very serious competitor to the BMPCC cameras, and the reviews by Kai and Look were very favourable without many real down-sides.  There's a newer model IIRC called the E2-C which is cheaper, and may be similar to the P4K?  If you haven't already, maybe have a look at the spec sheet and a few reviews?

Be careful with the E2-C. Make sure that you check out the reviews before buying it. I believe that it has terrible rolling shutter and very limited dynamic range. The E2 might be ok, but the E2-C is not in the same league. 

[thebrothersthre3]

35 minutes ago, drm said:

Be careful with the E2-C. Make sure that you check out the reviews before buying it. I believe that it has terrible rolling shutter and very limited dynamic range. The E2 might be ok, but the E2-C is not in the same league. 

Yeah the E2-C sensor seems to be a lot like the GH4, but worse rolling shutter. 

[tonysss]

 

today's test: 

BMMCC - best colors and overall look , a little noisy picture, but the noise is pleasant. Moire problem. But overall he is the winner! (Slowmo 60p) 

at ISO 400 is slightly cleaner in the shadows. (Native is 800) . It is not a modern clear picture, but as a best film emulation.

BMPCC (orig) - same as BMMCC but only 30p (a little more noise and moire than BMMCC)

BMPCC4K - worse colors and overall picture is shifted to yellow-red?  sharp highlights rolloff ? the picture is far more difficult to correct and color than the old pocket ?

the picture is cleaner , but it gets a "video look" ,  The shape of the body is terrible.  I gave a second chance and really didn't ... I put it back.

GH5 - The best tool for run & shot - Worse colors than BMPCC4K but not much, excelent IBIS ! , battery life, adjustable display and viewfinder. Very economical codec for all day shooting. It's a winner if you need quick and comfortable shooting.  It is a modern clear picture. Winner for RUN & GUN Shooting

 

So everything stays the same, I keep GH5 for modern picture style, BMMCC for film emulation project. 

BMPCC4K - not necessary ?

                     

[Novim]

1 hour ago, tonysss said:

 

BMPCC4K - worse colors and overall picture is shifted to yellow-red?  sharp highlights rolloff ? the picture is far more difficult to correct and color than the old pocket ?

the picture is cleaner , but it gets a "video look" ,  The shape of the body is terrible.  I gave a second chance and really didn't ... I put it back.

GH5 - The best tool for run & shot - Worse colors than BMPCC4K but not much, excelent IBIS ! , battery life, adjustable display and viewfinder. Very economical codec for all day shooting. It's a winner if you need quick and comfortable shooting.  It is a modern clear picture. Winner for RUN & GUN Shooting

 

Beg to differ, my experience is just the reverse one. With P4K (Braw) one can do what ones wants, go in both directions ("organic" vs "digital"); not with GH5. Yellow-red shift could depend on lenses, settings, lights etc. "Run & Gun" section also depends on what one is shooting.

[tonysss]

7 minutes ago, Novim said:

Beg to differ, my experience is just the reverse one. With P4K (Braw) one can do what ones wants, go in both directions ("organic" vs "digital"); not with GH5. Yellow-red shift could depend on lenses, settings, lights etc. "Run & Gun" section also depends on what one is shooting.

 

Yes you are right, GH5 is the worst in colors, just as I write. But the old fairchild sensor gives me the best color and easy color correction. The new pocket 4K is exactly in the middle between GH5 and Fairchild. Everyone likes a different machine, that's okay. I write purely my findings. 

 

 

 

[Emanuel]

It's all about the pleasure to shoot... : ) I simply stop to shoot with my dozen of Panasonic camera units when started to put my hands on P4K -- how can I read here this is unnecessary?? It just puzzles me!

[thebrothersthre3]

After having the convenience of SLR viewfinders and LCD's its hard to go to something where you need an external one. The OG pocket screen is just the worst. 

[leslie]

it must be nice to have the luxury of several cameras to choose from and i thank you for your insights. Coming from a total newbie perspective. For me the p4k is a perfectly capable camera. The ui is easy enough to work out, you get a free editor. the battery life is ok, not outstanding, but ok Maybe the picture isn't as organic as the original but its still a great picture none the less. Originally i wasn't a fan of the screen brightness when outside, however if i take my phone outside i cant read the screen on it either so complaining about screen brightness is abit silly in hindsight. My only grievance is that there is no tilting or flippy screen. Perhaps i'm a spoilt brat, the thing is my canon 60d made in 2010 has a folding flippy screen, what the marketing department was telling the boss i have no idea, i do believe they got that rigid screen totally wrong. But for $1200 us or $1850 aus its still a pretty impressive camera. No camera is perfect, but you can always rig the camera up to make it more applicable to whatever it is you want to do.

 

[thebrothersthre3]

1 hour ago, leslie said:

it must be nice to have the luxury of several cameras to choose from and i thank you for your insights. Coming from a total newbie perspective. For me the p4k is a perfectly capable camera. The ui is easy enough to work out, you get a free editor. the battery life is ok, not outstanding, but ok Maybe the picture isn't as organic as the original but its still a great picture none the less. Originally i wasn't a fan of the screen brightness when outside, however if i take my phone outside i cant read the screen on it either so complaining about screen brightness is abit silly in hindsight. My only grievance is that there is no tilting or flippy screen. Perhaps i'm a spoilt brat, the thing is my canon 60d made in 2010 has a folding flippy screen, what the marketing department was telling the boss i have no idea, i do believe they got that rigid screen totally wrong. But for $1200 us or $1850 aus its still a pretty impressive camera. No camera is perfect, but you can always rig the camera up to make it more applicable to whatever it is you want to do.

 

Yeah a tilting screen would have really been great. 

[IncriminatingPictures]

I’m curious about the folks “taking away points” from the BMPCC4k for not being a run and gun camera. I’m not sure I saw marketing that claimed it was one. So while I’m sure some people find that input and insight important when choosing a camera, I still find it odd that some use it as a metric to claim the camera is “less usable”

 

But i guess i agree, if you’re looking for a camera to shoot wedding type events in run-and-gun mixed light scenarios, then this probably isn’t the camera for you. If you want that setup and footage you can just drop a LUT on and not think about. GH5 is hard to beat.

 

If you’re a more planned and set-up type of photographer who needs a cheap camera that gives you a cinematic raw image that you know how to color correct. This is an excellent choice. 

[tonysss]

Yes, GH5 has worse colors than BMPC4K, we agree on that. (Maybe there is a mistake in my English, sorry) GH5 is the best in the like709 profile with modified knee, colors are most realistic with easy sorting. I've been using GH5 for nearly three years 1000 times I've tried all possible settings, but the best skin color gives me like 709. BMPCC4 has a much larger dynamic range than GH5, I wish BM returned to the Fairchild sensor. Or try Ursu 4.6k (but money ?)

don't get me wrong, I know very well what BMPC4K and what he was devised for, My main complaint is that the good old Fairchild colors are gone, and I prefer to keep the BMMCC. I would like to draw the attention of future buyers. On old cameras, editing was extremely simple, on the new BMPCC4 it takes me more work to get the picture where I need it. 

[BTM_Pix]

15 minutes ago, IncriminatingPictures said:

I’m curious about the folks “taking away points” from the BMPCC4k for not being a run and gun camera. I’m not sure I saw marketing that claimed it was one. So while I’m sure some people find that input and insight important when choosing a camera, I still find it odd that some use it as a metric to claim the camera is “less usable”

 

Whilst I don't disagree at all with the overall point you're making, I think it is fair to point out that Blackmagic do actually show it in a numerous scenarios in their marketing that would fit into that sort of use, at least in the way they are representing the cameras being used by the operators.

Although the detail in the equipment used section for each scenarios belies those illustrations, which is a bit misleading as well. 

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/workflow

[IncriminatingPictures]

36 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Whilst I don't disagree at all with the overall point you're making, I think it is fair to point out that Blackmagic do actually show it in a numerous scenarios in their marketing that would fit into that sort of use, at least in the way they are representing the cameras being used by the operators.

Although the detail in the equipment used section for each scenarios belies those illustrations, which is a bit misleading as well. 

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/workflow

Haha I see your point. I guess I’ve only ever saw the video clips and not the way they were used in the marketing material. 

[drm]

30 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Whilst I don't disagree at all with the overall point you're making, I think it is fair to point out that Blackmagic do actually show it in a numerous scenarios in their marketing that would fit into that sort of use, at least in the way they are representing the cameras being used by the operators.

Although the detail in the equipment used section for each scenarios belies those illustrations, which is a bit misleading as well. 

https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/blackmagicpocketcinemacamera/workflow

While the P4K/P6K *could* be used in the situations they show in those ads, I am not sure that I would chose the P4K/P6K cameras for those settings. As I have said many times, I love the P4K & P6K cameras and the options they provide. But, in a rapidly moving run/gun situation, I have found them challenging to work with. The one-touch AF is slow (at best) and the battery life is poor (unless you use an external NP or v-mount). Perhaps your @BTM_Pix AF solution will help in this area. If I have time to set up and can use sticks, give me the P4K/P6K every time. If I have to go handheld or move fast, I generally take something else (GH5/GH5s, etc.).

[BTM_Pix]

7 minutes ago, drm said:

While the P4K/P6K *could* be used in the situations they show in those ads, I am not sure that I would chose the P4K/P6K cameras for those settings. As I have said many times, I love the P4K & P6K cameras and the options they provide. But, in a rapidly moving run/gun situation, I have found them challenging to work with. The one-touch AF is slow (at best) and the battery life is poor (unless you use an external NP or v-mount). Perhaps your @BTM_Pix AF solution will help in this area. If I have time to set up and can use sticks, give me the P4K/P6K every time. If I have to go handheld or move fast, I generally take something else (GH5/GH5s, etc.).

I think they can be used in the scenarios they are showing, but only with the supporting gear they list rather than in the way they actually illustrate the operators doing it  

Whilst the AF solution is quite a few months away, my small hardware interface to use the Tilta Nucleus Nano focus controller with the electronic lenses (as well as the software route via our app) isn't.

Without blowing my own trumpet unduly, it makes a pretty significant difference to manual focusing control with native lenses and can offer some mitigation operationally for not having an AF system worth the name.

No wires, no motors and no additional powering also makes it a lot more friendly for smaller configurations.

[drm]

16 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I think they can be used in the scenarios they are showing, but only with the supporting gear they list rather than in the way they actually illustrate the operators doing it  

I agree with you. The camera can work well in most environments with some accessories.

I work a lot of live events where I only get one shot and there are no retakes. I frequently use the P4K/P6K cameras on a shoulder rig, with a big battery and a follow focus. In that environment, they work well. I am still sorting the straight out of camera colors for our live broadcasts, but I am fairly happy with this setup.

I am not really happy with the camera when I have to use the camera handheld in a rapidly changing environment. I guess it just comes down to the effort needed to get great footage. Sometimes grabbing an S1H, GH5, or an A7III is going to give you more usable footage. Different cameras for different jobs

[tonysss]

 

This is problem also on URSA 4.6 ? (red cliping?)

 

[drm]

2 hours ago, tonysss said:

This is problem also on URSA 4.6 ? (red cliping?)

Some LED lights can produce colors that are beyond the range of many sensors. The camera sensor or image pipeline may clip those colors. Different cameras are sensitive to different lights. The Panasonic cameras (S1, etc.) have problems with blue LED light. My old JVC LS300 cameras would freak out when a LED in the blue & purple range was in the frame (think weddings). Some of the BM cameras are sensitive to clipping in the red channel. If you shoot raw, a color space transform can usually fix this problem. Hopefully, BM pays attention and works on the red issues in the next version of their color science. Have you checked the BM forums for people talking about particular BM cams and this issue?

[leslie]

11 hours ago, IncriminatingPictures said:

I’m curious about the folks “taking away points” from the BMPCC4k for not being a run and gun camera. I’m not sure I saw marketing that claimed it was one. So while I’m sure some people find that input and insight important when choosing a camera, I still find it odd that some use it as a metric to claim the camera is “less usable”

i dont think i'm taking points away from the bmp4k, rather consider it as user feedback and mostly i'm pretty happy with it,  just in case there was any doubt out there. I certainly never said it was or wasn't run and gun. My style isnt running and gunning, actually my style doesn't include any running at all if i'm honest ?. A lot of machines are heading towards multiple use, dual purpose functionality, take smartphones for example, heck even a fridge can connect to the internet these days. I reckon the first camera company or even upstart company that loads up on features in one model will clean up. They may sell less models but they will sell more of one kind. As they say, build it and they will come.

[Kisaha]

I just received a phone call that my P4K just arrived!

I have a very tough schedule but I am getting it soon!