Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[SteveV4D]

 

10 hours ago, leslie said:

but if you have it, you may as well use it right 😉

😎

Editing BRAW in Resolve is a dream compared to my H264 files I work with from my GH5 and GH5s.  Editing H265 from my drone is even worse, but I think RAW on a Mavic Pro drone is a wish I shall be waiting a long time for.   Thankfully I've never edited MJPEG files, not since the early days of video DSLR.  The Nikon D90 I owned, which first introduced me to the idea of shooting video with a photo camera.  That was almost 10 years ago. Video has progressed a lot since then.

I'm almost reluctant to look at any camera now that uses H264 as it's codec.   Though if my GH5(s) is set to all-i, it's workable.  The only issue with ProRes and BRAW recording is power, which is frankly a pain.  

[Yannick Willox]

More than a year later, seems like braw is a much underrated codec.

It edits quite easily on a budget pc, does not generate huge files, and is free to use for other manufacturers.

There is nothing like the p4k for the money, i needed resolve studio, so the bmpcc4k actually cost me 950 euro. More so, because I already had some decent m43 lenses.

The 6k is another story, plenty of competition there.

[independent]

20 hours ago, Yannick Willox said:

The 6k is another story, plenty of competition there.

6K for $2K? I think there's no competition there. 

For the record, our studio had access to both 4k and 6k cameras. Once you review footage from both on a quality 4K or 5K monitor, it's not close. The 6K doesn't give you a minor increase in detail, it's significant. Everybody in our studio was struck by how...transparent the 6K looked. It looks like still photography. You can pull great stills from this, and we did for several major commercial shoots before covid. 

Color, skin tones, were noticeable better as well. The 4k looked almost out of focus in comparison. If you're delivering in 1080p, who cares, but if you care about 4K, the 6K gives you much better 4K. We immediately cleared out the 4K cameras and replaced them with 6Ks.

The metabones speed booster XL on the 4k was deemed not worth it considering it pushes you close to the price of the 6K. With the 6K price drop, it's the same price now. 

 

 

[Kisaha]

14 hours ago, independent said:

6K for $2K? I think there's no competition there. 

For the record, our studio had access to both 4k and 6k cameras. Once you review footage from both on a quality 4K or 5K monitor, it's not close. The 6K doesn't give you a minor increase in detail, it's significant. Everybody in our studio was struck by how...transparent the 6K looked. It looks like still photography. You can pull great stills from this, and we did for several major commercial shoots before covid. 

Color, skin tones, were noticeable better as well. The 4k looked almost out of focus in comparison. If you're delivering in 1080p, who cares, but if you care about 4K, the 6K gives you much better 4K. We immediately cleared out the 4K cameras and replaced them with 6Ks.

The metabones speed booster XL on the 4k was deemed not worth it considering it pushes you close to the price of the 6K. With the 6K price drop, it's the same price now. 

M43 mount can be more versatile, especially for people owning m43 lenses AND EF, like me and having a few speedboosters and/or passive adapters already. Even dead cheap Viltrox solutions will take you a long way.

Also, with the various crop factors and different formats, 6K pushes you to shoot at 6K Braw and handle everything else in post later, so a lot bigger budget for recording amd offline media, significantly bigger. Or else, why to buy a 6K Braw camera if not for shooting 6K Braw, while 4K is prores only (? Is this still the case?).

As of the Image Quality, we had a few hundred posts here about the subject and the difference is there, but miniscule and not at all as pronounced as you claim and only if closely inspected and compared one next to each other. I do not know many that say "oh, damn, wish I had the 6K for that shot/job", actually do not know anyone with a P6K anyway, while almost everyone has a P4K - especially the m43 crowds that is a very strong group; imagine that we are using GH5 cameras for prime time shows here.

I do am charmed by the price reduction (which is significantly less in Europe anyway), but as an additional camera, not a P4K replacement, and that is the "beauty" of BM policy, they make you want to buy both, and maybe the next one later. ATEMs will play a role to that also. The convinience is there certainly, but P6K is not a no-brainer, and sales and people's interest in forums are clear indicators of that.

[independent]

The difference between 8.8 MP and 21.2 MP is objectively significant; it is 240% the pixels. But you do need monitoring capacities to resolve that difference. On a 5K monitor, the increase in detail of the 6K makes the 4K seem out of focus.

No complaints about the EF mount. Nearly every cameras can take EF lenses, from MFT to cinema cameras such as ARRI, RED, and Canon. We've cut BM 4K/6K footage w/ the Canon C200/C300 II and lens matching was a key consideration. It's been more practical to standardize lenses for flexibility on set or in the field and consistency in post. 

As far as media, the Samsung SSD's give you 500gb under $100, which I think is the cheapest for any camera system. And we’ve had no issues cutting the footage on Mac pros, Mac mini’s, or MacBooks. If you already work with 4K, you may not have to add anything to upgrade your RAID setup except to add more drives. 

That being said, 6K is not for everybody. But for commercial shoots, it's been very good to us. Especially for fashion - the ability to pull or capture 21MP stills has been a boon. 6K also gives a bit of peace of mind considering the push to 8K, knowing that your work will hold up better in the future.

[Kisaha]

2 hours ago, independent said:

The difference between 8.8 MP and 21.2 MP is objectively significant; it is 240% the pixels. But you do need monitoring capacities to resolve that difference. On a 5K monitor, the increase in detail of the 6K makes the 4K seem out of focus.

No complaints about the EF mount. Nearly every cameras can take EF lenses, from MFT to cinema cameras such as ARRI, RED, and Canon. We've cut BM 4K/6K footage w/ the Canon C200/C300 II and lens matching was a key consideration. It's been more practical to standardize lenses for flexibility on set or in the field and consistency in post. 

As far as media, the Samsung SSD's give you 500gb under $100, which I think is the cheapest for any camera system. And we’ve had no issues cutting the footage on Mac pros, Mac mini’s, or MacBooks. If you already work with 4K, you may not have to add anything to upgrade your RAID setup except to add more drives. 

That being said, 6K is not for everybody. But for commercial shoots, it's been very good to us. Especially for fashion - the ability to pull or capture 21MP stills has been a boon. 6K also gives a bit of peace of mind considering the push to 8K, knowing that your work will hold up better in the future.

Obviously all these are very specific to your job. Obviously there are some advantages to 6K S35 EF camera, but a same camera with an RF mount could be even better.

I could argue that:

1) no Braw at 4K. Most people do not even deliver on 4K yet, let alone 6K..

2) Crop Factor with Speedboosters, can go from X1.9 to X1.2, and a lot of different steps in between. With a passive one you can have X1.9 when you need tele, and move accordingly down the lane.

 A lot of people already own Speedboosters, I owned the Lens Regain even before I owned any m43 camera (the Pocket is my first). A little bit of more light and some other stuff, you know the drill.

4) Lenses, so many cheap and quite good, and smallish/lightish m43 lenses

5) I can work with my native batteries on the P4K, that is not even close to the 6K, you definitely need an external powering solution.

6) EF is great, but I have a full set of FD (there must be 8-9 lenses from my AE-1 days) that I would like to use occassionaly.

7) P6K has maybe the most noisy fans on a camera, as a sound man (that is my main profession) that considers me a lot.

8 an example "At the highest constant bit rate encoding option—3:1—the Pocket 4K clocks in with a storage rate of 135 MB/s. The Pocket 6K, however, will be bringing in 3:1 footage at a colossal 323 MB/s. Roughly, you’re looking at just under 19GB a minute.". Yes, media are relatively cheap these days, but not free. If you record and store the footage, can increase your monthly bill on hard drives and recording media significantly.

9) I do not know about the future! Still most of our media consumed are not even 4K.

Of course I am not "against" the 6K, I just make the argument. I may buy one my self, but the P4K seems like an "essential" buy - anyone could/has buy one, while the P6K, is more of an acquired taste. 

As you can see the P4K thread is multiple times bigger than the P6K, same story on sales probably (I do not have the stats, but I still haven't seen a P6K on the wild), and maybe that is why they had to reduce the price significantly.

These are cameras for the "budget consious" consumers. If you are running a succesful fashion agency I would guess that you are playing with the best toys, not some cheap - o camera for the underaged masses. Even the cost of another T5 hard drive is important to those consumers. Let's face it, the main selling point here is the price of each camera. I personally bought one because I had some stuff around anyway, so it didn't cost me much to "build" on this camera, and still can play with the Braw with no much fuss. The Resolve was a bonus as well, as I saved some money for my tiny business.

If you increase your budget there are other options too, some 4K full frame (Sigma fp?), some even 6K, before the price reduction the P6K wasn't such a nice proposition.

Still, as much I hate the design and form factor, this series of Pocket cameras are sort of a revolution for this new generation of content creators.

[independent]

I think anybody who is interested in the highest image quality would be interested in 6K, and when 8K comes out, that would be of interest too. 

I wouldn't get the 6K to shoot 4K. I would get the 6K to deliver higher quality 4K. As far as the lack of 4K Braw on the Pocket 6K, I believe the HQ Prores is similar enough.

I love the metabones speedboosters, but they didn't make sense economically. A P4K w/ the metabones speed booster was too close to the price of the 6K, and our team unilaterally preferred the 6K's image to the speedboosted 4K's, even with the crop difference. We did a variety of test shots, and the 6K was just cleaner, more detailed, etc. - and better in low light. I think the speedbooster may have added some blooming effects too.

As far as lenses, if you have MFT lenses you love, enjoy them! I used to have a full set of Leica-R lenses, declicked, Leitaxed for my red EF mount, CLA'ed every 2 years. I never used them beyond my personal projects because they were a pain in the ass to match other lenses and didn't have usable focus marks. I stopped waxing poetic about those Leica lenses, because I find that lighting, camera features, and usability in production had a much greater impact on the final image. 

We had no problem w/ the pocket 6k (or 4k) powering situation because we simply treated it as any other professional camera in a cage. Conveniently we used Sony NP-F batteries that we had on hand for some of our lights, Atomos recorders, etc. I think the problem is DSLR/mirrorless users who expect all-day shooting as if they have a photo camera, which it's not. But the Pocket 4K/6K have been the most compact pro video camera we have ever used, even rigged up. We used them often on gimbals. 

I wouldn't call the 6K's fan as loud (have you heard REDs?!). If you work in sound, you might want to compare the db levels w/ other cameras. It's audible, but only if you're using the onboard mics. Our sound mixer, boom ops, post audio production crew haven't had any issues with the 6K fan noise relative to other cameras. Other ambient noise is always more of a problem, A/C, traffic, etc. 

As far as bitrate, we generally shoot 5:1 or 8:1 compression ratios on multicam shoots to stay within the bandwidth of our RAID setups. For single cam, shooting 5:1 or 8:1 probably wouldn't change your 4K editing setup at all. And let's say if you're doing a long project like a feature film; I'm not sure if storage space would be that much of a factor in your total budget. Let's say you were to compare the 6K to the 4K, at braw 5:1, with a shooting ratio of 10:1, so a total of 15 hours of footage for a 90 min film. The difference between the two would be 5 TBs. Considering enterprise drives go for about $25/TB, you'd have to shell out $125 more dollars. Double or triple that for backups, and that's still pretty much nothing.

[Kisaha]

@independent

As I said, use specific, the 6K is better for you. Fine. I just pin pointed some things that make the P4K an indie hit, while the 6K is still not as well received. You claim that one should buy the 6K, but I proved with real life examples and reasoning that it is not the case. P4K is the first choice, and the 6K is an afterthought for the majority.

1.270.000 views and 453 pages in this thread 74.000 views and 33 pages for the 6K one. It is pretty obvious you are not talking for the masses.

The Viltrox adapters start from 99$, you do not have to buy Metabones, and if one want to invest on Metabones XL that goes from X1.56 from factor to X1.25(do not remember exactly the number) which is a quite significant difference. That is not even close. One case you stick with X1.56 (not even S35) and the other X1.2X to X1.9 (great tele reach for live performances or shows).

Also, when speedboosting, the 4K erases what benefit the 6K has in low light, which was like half a stop or something, not a huge difference anyway. I never shoot in high ISO, 3200 has me covered 100%. I am not a speleologist.

As of the audio side of things, when we use Red cameras the workflow is a lot different and quite honestly we are trying to avoid them for scripted drama (for other reasons than sound). Usually we use them for video clips or small projects such these. Isn't the fan stoped when you record on a Red camera? I am not sure, but I remember I didn't have any issues while recording, but we have a video village, and my boom op is one of the best in the country.

When one uses the Pocket, that means that is a very low budgeted work with no much luxuries and/or a full crew. I am surprised that you claim you work on a big company and use the Pocket as your main camera. It is actually the first I heard. Pocket cameras are not ready for the big scene yet, is my opinion.

As of the powering and media issue, the 6K needs a lot more juice, that is a fact, I can shoot for a working day with a couple or three LP betteries (after the update), depending the project of course, the 6K is just not possible.

Also, I quoted a very specific example there which one needs multiple times the data of an 4K (obviously you get more data, so it must have benefits, right) there isn't a way to sugar coat it, a fact is a fact and numbers are numbers. This is not a philosophical debate.

What is philosophical, and we can argue for months about it, my opinion is these cameras are perfect for no budget shorts, but if you shoot 3-5 days, which is the usual time for a short, can rent a better camera for a lot less money, and if you shoot a bigger project you play with the big guns anyway.

The last couple of shorts we did, rent a C200, that was almost the price of a C100mkII rent a couple of years ago.

Honestly, my Pocket is the least used camera I ever owned. Mine is fully rigged with a lot of adapters and a few Speedboosters and even CFast cards and T5 and everything in between, still if it is a bigger project I would choose a bigger/better camera, or for a smaller project I would get my hybrids.

So, most people will get the cheaper one just because is dead cheap, while a lot more will be getting the 6K now with the price cut and the benefits the ATEM Pro brings. Before it was somewhere between no man's land.

[SteveV4D]

I'm not sure judging forum posts is the best gauge of popularity.  The Pocket 4K was announced April 2018 and I didn't get mine till December.  Most of those posts were speculating over this very cheap RAW enabled camera for the many months leading g to its release.  Then more posts over the faults and issues with it soon after people got theirs.  Being the first of it's kind will always generate more interest, speculation and debate. 

In contrast, the Pocket 6K was quickly announced and released.  Its cost no doubt put some people off including me, and since many already owned or were still waiting for their 4K version, it was never going to have the same buzz.   Plus in some cases, the Pocket 4K thread was used to discuss the 6K too.  

Frankly there are advantages to each camera.  Now that the cost is down, I am looking to buy one to supplement my Pocket 4K.   For me it's not practical to rent and I prefer to own my gear.  As a sole shooter working on Weddings and Corporate work, I need to work with multiple cameras that are small and can be rigged if needed.

I can see both Pocket cameras working very well for me with their own strengths and weaknesses.  For me, being able to grab stills at 6K resolution would be very useful.  Plus I'm using the Sigma Art EF lens for my Pocket 4K, so no issue with the lens mount  I have loads of 4/3 lenses, but I tend to keep them for my GH5 and GH5s cameras.  

There is no better choice here.  There are of course more Pocket 4Ks out there being used than 6Ks.  But that is no reason to dismiss the camera over the Pocket 4K.  I think the price reduction will tempt many to look at it again, as I have done.

 

[Kisaha]

2 hours ago, SteveV4D said:

I'm not sure judging forum posts is the best gauge of popularity.  The Pocket 4K was announced April 2018 and I didn't get mine till December.  Most of those posts were speculating over this very cheap RAW enabled camera for the many months leading g to its release.  Then more posts over the faults and issues with it soon after people got theirs.  Being the first of it's kind will always generate more interest, speculation and debate. 

In contrast, the Pocket 6K was quickly announced and released.  Its cost no doubt put some people off including me, and since many already owned or were still waiting for their 4K version, it was never going to have the same buzz.   Plus in some cases, the Pocket 4K thread was used to discuss the 6K too.  

Frankly there are advantages to each camera.  Now that the cost is down, I am looking to buy one to supplement my Pocket 4K.   For me it's not practical to rent and I prefer to own my gear.  As a sole shooter working on Weddings and Corporate work, I need to work with multiple cameras that are small and can be rigged if needed.

I can see both Pocket cameras working very well for me with their own strengths and weaknesses.  For me, being able to grab stills at 6K resolution would be very useful.  Plus I'm using the Sigma Art EF lens for my Pocket 4K, so no issue with the lens mount  I have loads of 4/3 lenses, but I tend to keep them for my GH5 and GH5s cameras.  

There is no better choice here.  There are of course more Pocket 4Ks out there being used than 6Ks.  But that is no reason to dismiss the camera over the Pocket 4K.  I think the price reduction will tempt many to look at it again, as I have done.

 

I never dismissed any camera (or object/item/product/person, for that matter, everyone and everything has their role on a market/planet), I simply replied to the idea, that the 6K is a no brainer, quite the oppossite of what you say, I said, really! The 6K is a no brainer, it is difficult to choose between the 2.

As of the forums, we talked about the 4K on the 6K thread as well, I know, because I was there commenting! The P4K was a shocking announcement. Since then a lot happened, other companies offer 6K or 5.6K.

The fact that you are considering the 6K as "an additional camera", like me, is self-explained really. You didn't say, "I will sell all my GH5 and GH5s and the P4K cameras to grab the 6K". Right.

The usual price before the price reduction was around 2700euros in Europe, that was almost half price of the P4K, a young dude, or someone working on the lower spectrum of budgets, couldn't easily reach the P6K before, and if anyone was going above the 2500, there were some choices in full frame hybrids or used Cine cameras, so making the choice more difficult.

 We all are consider getting one because of the price reduction, NOW it is a viable option, before, it was an exotic choice. I am pretty sure if we had the info, there are at least 2 to 3 times more P4K in the wild than P6K.

When/If you buy a 6K, let us know what do you think.

[SteveV4D]

1 hour ago, Kisaha said:

 

The fact that you are considering the 6K as "an additional camera", like me, is self-explained really. You didn't say, "I will sell all my GH5 and GH5s and the P4K cameras to grab the 6K". Right.

The usual price before the price reduction was around 2700euros in Europe, that was almost half price of the P4K, a young dude, or someone working on the lower spectrum of budgets, couldn't easily reach the P6K before, and if anyone was going above the 2500, there were some choices in full frame hybrids or used Cine cameras, so making the choice more difficult.

 

I'm not selling my other cameras as I need them all.  I am often filming with 4 or 5 cameras at once.  And I wouldn't mind a 6th for some shoots.  When I get the P6K, it will be my main camera, and my P4K my B camera though.

I could always have afforded the P6K, its price  not that different to a GH5s.  But I had to think long and hard over the merits of filming in 6K.  File sizes, workflow.  Plus there seemed to be more quality control issues with the P6K, perhaps being more rushed released. 

Time has passed, and what with the R5 coming out with 8K, the P6K price reduction, it feels a good time to invest in a 6K camera.  I need a 2nd Pocket for Corporate shoots where I've been using the GH5s as a B camera, but I'm not happy mixing the 2.  It was always a choice between another P4K or a P6K, and BM have helped me make my mind up. 

[Matthew Capowski]

On 5/6/2020 at 3:18 PM, independent said:

As far as lenses, if you have MFT lenses you love, enjoy them! I used to have a full set of Leica-R lenses, declicked, Leitaxed for my red EF mount, CLA'ed every 2 years. I never used them beyond my personal projects because they were a pain in the ass to match other lenses and didn't have usable focus marks. I stopped waxing poetic about those Leica lenses, because I find that lighting, camera features, and usability in production had a much greater impact on the final image.

What lenses are you using now with the Pocket 6K and how do you like them?

[independent]

Probably the sigma 18-35 gets the most use. If you stay within that focus range, they’re very practical. As close to cinema lenses you can get on a budget.

We also have canon ef-s 10-18mm and 18-135mm lenses, which are all cheap, lightweight, and mostly good. Some distortion at either end, slow, and not as great if you need to pull focus. We generally don’t with these. We have 3 sets of every lens above for our 3 pocket 6Ks. 

Less often, we use Canon L zooms: 16-35, 24-70, 70-200. Canon L primes 24, 35, 50, 85, 100. We’d probably use them more if we could, but we have only one of each lens, earmarked mostly for our Canon c300ii, which we sold after the C300iii announcement.

On rare occasion, we’ll use the Sigma 20 1.4. 

I think that’s mostly it for the 6K. We did rent the Zeiss Compact Primes, which were phenomenal in look and use. Definitely made focusing easier and more accurate to get all that 6K resolution. 
 

  

[Emanuel]

Both P4K & P6K are practically the same with a difference for resolution, lens mount and acquisition price. It ends a bit pointless to discuss it or dismiss any one of those. They simply have no competition, end of story IMO : ) Waiting for P8K FF here if ever because P6K replaces it pretty well as hybrid tool.

[Yannick Willox]

P6K makes no sense to me, as you need another set of lenses.

I will rent one, for a specific project where we need to crop in (a lot ?). Will be interesting to see the difference in that specific case.

I bought a Kamlan 50mm f1.1 mk2 a month ago - amazing glass for the price. I just need to order the 21 mm now.

Does anyone have more experience with the DZO cinema glass ? I like my panaleica 12-60 a lot on my gx80, but somehow it does not make me happy on the p4k. Too much distortion on the wide end. It is still parfocal though.

I still prefer my older fourthirds lenses on the P4k ... Even the ois seems to have less quirks.

[Emanuel]

MFT is a great format indeed. When I mean dismiss any of them, I meant to ignore either of both actually. You can surely skip one of those if you have the other one, of course : ) But this camera series is a dream come true, my fav acquisition system ever designed, produced and delivered to my book : -)

Mainly shot on P6K, here's a trailer of a feature film co-produced by me currently @ post production:

 

[Yurolov]

On 5/20/2020 at 7:15 AM, Emanuel said:

MFT is a great format indeed. When I mean dismiss any of them, I meant to ignore either of both actually. You can surely skip one of those if you have the other one, of course : ) But this camera series is a dream come true, my fav acquisition system ever designed, produced and delivered to my book : -)

Mainly shot on P6K, here's a trailer of a feature film co-produced by me currently @ post production:

 

Looks amazing. Very much like film. How was the color grading process? 

[Emanuel]

Still in the process. I'll open a thread on topic in the footage section : -)

[Yurolov]

On 4/30/2020 at 12:16 AM, Yannick Willox said:

The output voltage is too low ... It is only 10.8 V which is the minimum. The output is only 2A max, the bmpcc 4K power supply is 2.5A !

Imo it is a product that works, but it is anyone's guess how long the bmpcc 4K will work without frying itself.

I use a batpower 98Wh model, output is 15V. It cuts out before voltage goes out of bmpcc 4K specs, and transition to internal battery is seemless. It also has more than enough power to power the camera + OIS + 48V + SSD and charge the internal battery. It can output 90W at 15V, so it should be safe at 6A max (it is designed to power laptops ...)

At only 110 euro it will power the 4K for 270' with T5 connected, screen at 60%, lens OIS on (the internal LPe6n battery gives 44' under the same conditions)

So I can safely keep the camera on and recording for 5h ! (6h20 on SD card, screen at 30%, no OIS).

They also have 148Wh and 210 Wh models (the 148Wh has the same physical size...)

I use the smallrig powerbank holder, on a nato clamp. I have 2 extra nato rails on my cage (one underside, one on the top handle), so I can reposition or attach the powerbank in seconds.

My advice would be : do NOT buy a cheap charger with less than 3A / 15V specs. I think 110 euro is already on the cheap side. My runtime with it equals 6,13 LPe6n batteries, which translates to €484 !

 

For anyone looking to purchase this Zitay - I have had a further look. The output is 10.8V which is within the required range and it is rated at 6800mAH, which is more than enough. It is not 2A. So you get 75Wh - for the 6k that is about 3 hours of run time, and more for the 4k. The current price is 85USD . Some people will appreciate how it mounts and how discrete it is.

[Yannick Willox]

Anyone here with multiple p4k that can comment if there is a way to start/stop remotely over bluetooth, one smartphone for multiple cameras ? Is it possible ?