Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[webrunner5]

7 hours ago, John Jay said:

I compared the 10bit ALL-I on the GH5 with external 10 bit ProresHQ at 400% on a 4K monitor, and the Panasonic codec looked better with finer detail, nicer grain pattern. The prores looked blocky at 400%. 

I think modern compressed codecs are more sophisticated than Prores and much smaller file size 

So you really think a GH5 is going to look better than this new 4k BMPCC? Really.  Even the original BMPCC is renowned for it's output, and you think it is going to be no better in this one? The one picture we have up here form it, and you think the GH5 can output a file like that? And we have no clue what setting that picture was even taken at. I would guess it is at ProResHQ but, I doubt it is Raw. But we all have different ideas of what we like output wise. That is the reason there are so many camera manufactures out there. I just could not see myself ever buying a GH5, the GH5s maybe, better color science in it to me, because I really don't like the output from it. But you do, and that is great.

I guess we will find out, " modern compressed codecs" are just that mainly so each company can have a priority codec, and mainly not to have to pay Apple for a License for ProRes. It is not always because it is better. Prue Raw is the best output by far, but it does require a good amount of work, well a lot at times to make it happen. More than the average person is willing to do. And I can understand that.

[Don Kotlos]

11 minutes ago, DBounce said:

They stated they can add raw output. So if things get heavy they will likely just add that in the new Prores Raw format and be done with it. They said this at the show.

If this is true then everyone should ask for it even if they don't need it, or even have a GH5/s for that matter. It would facilitate the democratization of this price segment even more by also putting pressure on Sony or Canon/Nikon if they decide to join as well. 

[bwhitz]

Quote

I compared the 10bit ALL-I on the GH5 with external 10 bit ProresHQ at 400% on a 4K monitor, and the Panasonic codec looked better with finer detail, nicer grain pattern. The prores looked blocky at 400%. 

You must be on some kind of drugs then. I've never seen a GH5 video that didn't look like absolute garbage at 4k... hell, it doesn't even look like a proper 2k image. The Sharpening and NR have no true off settings and it renders the detail as nothing but over-sharpened muddy-plastic. I'd like to see this GH5 video that has the "nice detail" you talking about. I'd love to be proven wrong...

[webrunner5]

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

@IronFilm That's a bold statement. Fanboy, not?

I think he is right for anything we can afford to buy new. Raw is pretty much the best you Can do. I don't think he is implying the 4k BMPCC is going to be the best, they have started the trend on Raw, but what if Sony followed suit on a A7r mk xx with Raw, that would be pretty much it. Not unless you Need a 8k camera, which I doubt I need.

[jonpais]

 

19 minutes ago, bwhitz said:

You must be on some kind of drugs then. I've never seen a GH5 video that didn't look like absolute garbage at 4k... hell, it doesn't even look like a proper 2k image. The Sharpening and NR have no true off settings and it renders the detail as nothing but muddy-plastic. I'd like to see this GH5 video that has the "nice detail" you talking about. I'd love to be proven wrong...

I know everyone is expecting another rant at this point, since this self-proclaimed authority on image quality just pretty much labeled all my footage as trash.... but I’m actually starting to find this irrational compulsion to smear Panasonic amusing. And I’m sure we’d all really like to see this charming fellow’s website, channel or showreel. Just to see what pro footage looks like. ?

[cantsin]

6 minutes ago, bwhitz said:

You must be on some kind of drugs then. I've never seen a GH5 video that didn't look like absolute garbage at 4k... hell, it doesn't even look like a proper 2k image. The Sharpening and NR have no true off settings and it renders the detail as nothing but muddy-plastic. I'd like to see this GH5 video that has the "nice detail" you talking about. I'd love to be proven wrong...

Well, sharpening and noise reduction can't be turned off in the camera, not even when you externally record ProRes from HDMI. So, technically, an external ProRes recording should have little or no advantages over the internal 10bit recording at high bitrates. And its true that h264 high profile retains more detail than ProRes at the same bitrates (but only then).

[Emanuel]

Sometimes I wonder if a few posters ever shot anything, really... Sorry to be sincere... :-)

You can always smooth practically anything, except a considerable weak acquisition codec at low bit rate as for instance or under certain severe artifacts such as aliasing or moiré or yet from insufficient color sampling (not exactly the case there for 95%-98% of the circumstances), going along dedicated craft and proper skills on both capture and post.

- E.

[Rinad Amir]

Sorry if this has been asked but has BM realeased any footage to play around? of new bmpcc

And holyshit some much hate goinground for gh5?

 

[DBounce]

2 minutes ago, Rinad Amir said:

Sorry if this has been asked but has BM realeased any footage to play around? of new bmpcc

And holyshit some much hate goinground for gh5?

 

Most here have not had a hands on with this chunky beast. After they do I suspect they will understand why the two are completely different animals. Right out of the box there is nothing “pocket” about this camera.

[Lux Shots]

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'll be very curious if come September if the Pocket and Micro Cinema secondhand prices will finally drop below US$500 (which is what the BMPCC used to sell for new!)

Total nonsense. 

Crowdfunding is to get money in before manufacturing starts.

While BMD won't see a penny of this prior to them being sold to the dealers 

 

 

Bullshit! I've done this in the past, it's a perfectly acceptable way to fund manufacturing cost. You spend your capital on R&D, then you do pre-orders to fund initial manufacturing.

One of the more difficult things to predict with a new product is demand. If you overestimate, you'll tap available cash flow which can be painful. If you underestimate, per unit cost are higher and lead times longer because you have to wait to get a slot for a new run. Pre-orders takes care of both of theses. Just order 20% more than your protests and that will be a good first production run.

[bwhitz]

12 minutes ago, jonpais said:

 

I know everyone is expecting another rant at this point, since this authority on image quality just pretty much labeled all my footage as trash.... but I’m actually starting to find this irrational compulsion to smear Panasonic amusing. And I’m sure we’d all really like to see this charming fellow’s website, channel or showreel. Just to see what pro footage looks like. ?

I didn't call YOUR footage trash... just the GH5 "image". Obviously, content is king... and I'm sure you can create great cinematic content. In fact, most modern cameras are going to allow you to create an image most audience find acceptable. BUT... let's be honest... this is a pixel peeping forum... and we're all image snobs! So I'm just being blunt. I have no idea why everyone's getting personal about shooting skills... were talking about the camera IMAGES here... not personal cinematography skills.

[Turboguard]

6 minutes ago, Lux Shots said:

Bullshit! I've done this in the past, it's a perfectly acceptable way to fund manufacturing cost. You spend your capital on R&D, then you do pre-orders to fund initial manufacturing.

So you say that when I paid B&H 1400USD it goes straight to BMD? I’m just curious, I would think that all vendors already pay BMD for preorder stock so they already have the initial funding. Say that B&H might get an overload of preorders and then give BMD even more money as result. Again, personally, I don’t think is preordering has given BMD a dime of our money (not as of yet at least). Just my 2 cents and I have no actual idea how this works. 

3 minutes ago, bwhitz said:

I didn't call YOUR footage trash... just the GH5 "image". Obviously, content is king... and I'm sure you can create great cinematic content. In fact, most modern cameras are going to allow you to create an image most audience find acceptable. BUT... let's be honest... this is a pixel peeping forum... and we're all image snobs! So I'm just being blunt. I have no idea why everyone's getting personal about shooting skills... were talking about the camera IMAGES here... not personal cinematography skills.

Again, Jonpais, you have to calm down. If people dislike the footage produced by a camera then that has nothing to do with your final product. They’re talking about the footage out of camera, not your personally graded and corrected footage. Jesus, calm down. 

[webrunner5]

12 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Most here have not had a hands on with this chunky beast. After they do I suspect they will understand why the two are completely different animals. Right out of the box there is nothing “pocket” about this camera.

Jesus we get you are not going to buy the God Damn thing. Give it a rest!

[Lux Shots]

4 minutes ago, Turboguard said:

So you say that when I paid B&H 1400USD it goes straight to BMD? I’m just curious, I would think that all vendors already pay BMD for preorder stock so they already have the initial funding. Say that B&H might get an overload of preorders and then give BMD even more money as result. Again, personally, I don’t think is preordering has given BMD a dime of our money (not as of yet at least). Just my 2 cents and I have no actual idea how this works. 

Again, Jonpais, you have to calm down. If people dislike the footage produced by a camera then that has nothing to do with your final product. They’re talking about the footage out of camera, not your personally graded and corrected footage. Jesus, calm down. 

It depends. A juggernaut in the retail camera space like B&H may get a line of credit in the form of net 30 or net 60. So if you pay B&H $1400, $1200 goes to Black Magic. So let's say B&H sold 100 cameras in pre-order. They will probably get a shipment for 120 and they will owe B&H the cash on the 20 in 30 or 60 days.

[jonpais]

8 minutes ago, Turboguard said:

So you say that when I paid B&H 1400USD it goes straight to BMD? I’m just curious, I would think that all vendors already pay BMD for preorder stock so they already have the initial funding. Say that B&H might get an overload of preorders and then give BMD even more money as result. Again, personally, I don’t think is preordering has given BMD a dime of our money (not as of yet at least). Just my 2 cents and I have no actual idea how this works. 

Again, Jonpais, you have to calm down. If people dislike the footage produced by a camera then that has nothing to do with your final product. They’re talking about the footage out of camera, not your personally graded and corrected footage. Jesus, calm down. 

There is no need to call any camera’s footage plastic looking garbage. No sensible person does this. It is offensive. Especially under the veil of anonymity, with no work to show. 

[webrunner5]

20 minutes ago, Lux Shots said:

Bullshit! I've done this in the past, it's a perfectly acceptable way to fund manufacturing cost. You spend your capital on R&D, then you do pre-orders to fund initial manufacturing.

Blackmagic is not doing crowdfunding. They are not going to get a dime from B&H or any company on pre orders. The will go to a bank and borrow money like any large company does to build buy the materials and pay for production for the camera. Plus company's like B&D don't even charge your credit card until it ships.

[Robert Collins]

12 minutes ago, Lux Shots said:

Bullshit! I've done this in the past, it's a perfectly acceptable way to fund manufacturing cost. You spend your capital on R&D, then you do pre-orders to fund initial manufacturing.

I am sorry. Just because you think it is ‘perfectly acceptable’ doesn’t make it so. You finance your manufacturing costs through ‘finance’ not through interest free, unsecured loans from your customers. What you consider ‘perfectly acceptable’ is actually illegal in some countries.

The exception is say Kickstarter where the contract is made explicit that your payment is an unsecured loan.

[BTM_Pix]

I'm not sure what BMD are going to do with their portion of the £54.98 that I've given CVP to pre-order one.

Or how they are going to give me it back if I change my mind.

[bwhitz]

12 minutes ago, jonpais said:

There is no need to call any camera’s footage plastic looking garbage. No sensible person does this. It is offensive. Especially under the veil of anonymity, with no work to show. 

lol... it's offensive? To who? The camera? Come on... The GH5 has an image that looks like plastic. When you compare it to the detail you get with Red or even Alexa at 2k... then yes, it's garbage. And I'm a BIG fan of Panasonic actually. That's why I'm being so hard on the GH5. I know what they're capable of... the EVA1 image is fantastic. The Varicam image is also one of my favorites of the major cameras. The GH5 ACTUALLY resolves a great image... in the 6K abamorphic mode... where it looks like it disables the garbage Sharpness and NR settings. So all Panasonic has to do is write ONE STINKING LINE OF CODE to disable the horrible, horrible, image-processing. This again, has nothing to deal with one's personal work. It literally doesn't factor into the discussion about camera images.

[jonpais]

7 minutes ago, bwhitz said:

lol... it's offensive? To who? The camera? Come on... The GH5 has an image that looks like plastic. When you compare it to the detail you get with Red or even Alexa at 2k... then yes, it's garbage. This again, has nothing to deal with one's personal work. It literally doesn't factor into the discussion about camera images.

But greater minds than yours don’t think the GH5/GH5s image is garbage: Paul Leeming, Matthew Scott, Hugh Brownstone, Bernard Bertrand, Andrew Reid, Luke Neumann, and Filippo Chiesa, to name just a few.