Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[andrgl]

48 minutes ago, Django said:

@cantsin I think it's a possibility since ProRes Raw brings so much more to the table in post than just ProRes yet in a similar average size bitrate. It's like raw for stills is now almost default in every camera which wasn't the case a decade ago.

But of course I'm saying this because of Atomos's advertising on the new recorder aiming it at DSLR/MILCs with ProRes Raw via HDMI.

Wishful thinking maybe but i really hope the introduction of this new codec will be a game changer and that camera makers will run with it..

Which camera outputs RAW over HDMI?

[mkabi]

1 hour ago, cantsin said:

Latest rumor/leak. If true, then this could indeed mean that the new Pocket will be sold with different sensor options.

I know there will be the 4K variety in there... And, may be a lower res. version... Preferably a higher res version.

But, personally, I don't see a point for another 1080p camera... It's just redundant.... As redundant as having a 1080p version of the URSA/URSA Mini/Pro....

If we were to have a lower res. version please let it be the 2.5k variety.

[cantsin]

Just now, mkabi said:

I know there will be the 4K variety in there... And, may be a lower res. version... Preferably a higher res version.

But, personally, I don't see a point for another 1080p camera... It's just redundant.... As redundant as having a 1080p version of the URSA/URSA Mini/Pro....

If we were to have a lower res. version please let it be the 2.5k variety.

Unlikely to happen, because the 2.5k sensor that BM used before in the BMCC requires too much cooling to be put into a compact body. 

For me, it smells like a dilemma that BM won't be able to deliver both 4K and high dynamic range in one small package - but can't let people wait more years for an updated Pocket either. 

[Django]

16 minutes ago, andrgl said:

Which camera outputs RAW over HDMI?

None yet. Btw we are talking about ProRes Raw, a new codec just announced. It's safe to assume the codec or output via HDMI will appear in upcoming devices:

Atomos doesn’t have an exclusive monopoly on ProRes RAW, DJI will also be implementing the codec into the INSPIRE 2’s Zenmuse X7 camera in May. Just when we will see ProRes RAW implemented into other devices and even cameras are still unknown. Apple is keen to make ProRes RAW an industry standard codec, so I wouldn’t imagine it will be too long before we see it being more widely adopted.  ProRes RAW is here

[webrunner5]

I found this, but this is obliviously pre ProRes Raw.

"Mitch Gross

11-08-2014, 03:41 AM

Mitch since you're experienced in that field I would like to hear your take on HDMI raw output. Is it technically possible to transfer a raw signal via an HDMI cable? Or does HDMI only carry encoded video signal?

Many arguments out there on the matter.
It is technically possible but not a great idea. RAW data can be encoded to be carried in a video stream, you just need to establish a decoder on the other side. The ARRI ALEXA does this with the T-Link RAW data stream, which is carried over dual link SDI cables. Plug them directly into a monitor and the picture looks like some crazy green-yellow Star Trek nonsense, but it is in fact a video signal. But all that means is that ARRI inserted vertical and horizontal blanking pulses and other signal structural elements and clocking so that it would seen as a video signal that could be carried over. The big difference between SDI and HDMI is that HDMI needs a linking between the two ends. There is a transmitter and a receiver circuit and they must "handshake" for the signal to go through.

So if you were to build a device with RAW output over HDMI, you would likely also have to build the device on the other end. And if you are going to do that, you are going to be spending a lot of time and money to make this system work, and it will all be a technical cheat and jumping through a lot of hoops in order to make it work with the limiting factors of the signal path that must be adhered to in order to remain HDMI-compliant. At that point it is likely to be far, far easier to simply add another output port to a camera which is just a proprietary buss connection -- a bunch of pins that carry all the RAW data in whatever way is easiest for you as a manufacturer. That's what is on a camera like the F5/F55.

So short answer is yes it is technically possible to send RAW over HDMI, but it is also not particularly attractive or viable a solution."

 

I am surprised how low the Mbps rate is for ProRes Raw in 4k! Impressive.

It also looks like HDMI 2.0 can do 12 bits in 4k video. So that might be enough to do the ProRes Raw??

http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinion/hdmi-2-0-vs-1-4-2913356

It looks like this ProRes Raw is along the lines of 4.4.4 which I have seen as low as 10 bit. So I am sort of sure we are going to see it going over HDMI. They are not going to put SDI ports on DSLR, Mirrorless cameras I would think?

[zerocool22]

43 minutes ago, andrgl said:

Which camera outputs RAW over HDMI?

Why would you want it though. I rather have them a SDI connection over a HDMI connection. Which is faster and more solid. I never had a SDI connector break, and I sure had HDMI connector breaks.

[mkabi]

46 minutes ago, cantsin said:

Unlikely to happen, because the 2.5k sensor that BM used before in the BMCC requires too much cooling to be put into a compact body. 

For me, it smells like a dilemma that BM won't be able to deliver both 4K and high dynamic range in one small package - but can't let people wait more years for an updated Pocket either. 

Your assumptions are based on a 2012-2013 model and that there is zero innovation over at blackmagic... No new sensor, no new processor and no new cooling system... Even over at Canon they were able to figure how to put 4K from a 1dx2 to the m50.

And, if your assumptions are correct... It's remarkable that after 5- 6 years that they can't figure out how..... I mean I don't even know how we even got from 240/480p to 1080p without a canyon sized camera.

[webrunner5]

3 minutes ago, zerocool22 said:

Why would you want it though. I rather have them a SDI connection over a HDMI connection. Which is faster and more solid. I never had a SDI connector break, and I sure had HDMI connector breaks.

I have seen SDI ports ripped completely out on a Few ENG cameras. But yeah it is rare as hell compared to a mini HDMI port! 

[Django]

I think everybody agrees SDI > HDMI however i don't think a single DSLR/MILC has had built-in SDI connectors AFAIK..

[BTM_Pix]

The YAGH Interface box gave SDI output, amongst other things, to the GH4.

Quite surprised they haven't produced an updated one for the GH5s at least (to further differentiate from the GH5).

Or maybe thats something they have up their sleeve.

[cantsin]

38 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Your assumptions are based on a 2012-2013 model and that there is zero innovation over at blackmagic... No new sensor, no new processor and no new cooling system... 

Blackmagic don't produce their own sensors, they buy them off-the-shelf from industrial camera sensor manufacturers like Fairchild and CMOSIS. Innovation in that industry is much slower than in mainstream photography/video technology. The 2.5k sensor you mention is a Fairchild sensor that hasn't been updated since. 

[Cinegain]

15 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

The YAGH Interface box gave SDI output, amongst other things, to the GH4.

Quite surprised they haven't produced an updated one for the GH5s at least (to further differentiate from the GH5).

Or maybe thats something they have up their sleeve.

One of the reasons as well was an audio interface. Which is why they put out an XLR hotshoe unit along the GH5.

[BTM_Pix]

24 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

One of the reasons as well was an audio interface. Which is why they put out an XLR hotshoe unit along the GH5.

Yeah, would've thought the DC in and the TC input would make a new one very relevant for where they want to pitch the GH5s.

Maybe Top Gear didn't ask for it

[jonpais]

@BTM_Pix You're killing it today.

[BTM_Pix]

4 minutes ago, jonpais said:

@BTM_Pix You're killing it today.

Would you be interested in a interface for the GH5 that gave you XLR inputs, SDI outputs and a DC input with D-Tap output?

Hypothetically speaking of course ....

[andrgl]

DSLR cameras don't output RAW Bayer data.

ProRes RAW is compressed Bayer data.

What manufacturer would be willing to undercut its own cinema cameras with cheap DSLRs/MILCs?

Sony, Canon and Panasonic have products that output RAW.

That leaves Nikon, Olympus, Pentax and Fuji.

Edit: Also Sigma. Wouldn't that be cool if they offered RAW video out?

[mkabi]

56 minutes ago, cantsin said:

Blackmagic don't produce their own sensors, they buy them off-the-shelf from industrial camera sensor manufacturers like Fairchild and CMOSIS. Innovation in that industry is much slower than in mainstream photography/video technology. The 2.5k sensor you mention is a Fairchild sensor that hasn't been updated since. 

Alright. Fair enough... But, assuming it's the same sensor and cooling.... Your assumption it's the same body. You forget that a 5 inch LCD TFT instead of 3 inch, SSD instead SD slot, 1/4" jacks instead of 1/8" jacks all play a part in internal real-estate as well as exteral shape & size.

[cantsin]

17 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Alright. Fair enough... But, assuming it's the same sensor and cooling.... Your assumption it's the same body. You forget that a 5 inch LCD TFT instead of 3 inch, SSD instead SD slot, 1/4" jacks instead of 1/8" jacks all play a part in internal real-estate as well as exteral shape & size.

I can't find an image of a BMCC teardown, but the sensor heatsink/cooler is quite massive. Even in the big BMCC housing, it needs active cooling through a fan. I don't think that you can put this sensor into a small camera, or only with a fan from hell. 

19 minutes ago, andrgl said:

DSLR cameras don't output RAW Bayer data.

ProRes RAW is compressed Bayer data.

What manufacturer would be willing to undercut its own cinema cameras with cheap DSLRs?

That's the mystery. Maybe Sony with the upcoming A7sIII. And maybe that camera won't be cheap anymore...

[BTM_Pix]

10 minutes ago, cantsin said:

I can't find an image of a BMCC teardown, but the sensor heatsink/cooler is quite massive. Even in the big BMCC housing, it needs active cooling through a fan. I don't think that you can put this sensor into a small camera, or only with a fan from hell. 

 

Here you go

 

 

[sanveer]

While the Blackmagic 2.7k Cinema Camera was just an unruly sized beast (both in dimensions and weight), I am surprised, because I thought the BMPCC would be smaller than all 4/3rd mount cameras. This is the BMPCC compared with the Panasonic GM5. 

http://camerasize.com/compare/#453,570

 

Right now there seem to be a lot of 4k capable sensors in the 1inch and 4/3rd range. While the Sony ones are famous a lot others exist, that may not be publicised enough. A lot of those would be just fine for a 4k cinema camera.