Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[jonpais]

One of my favorite lines from North by Northwest:

Ticket Seller: Something wrong with your eyes?
Roger Thornhill: Yes, they’re sensitive to questions.

[amanieux]

2 hours ago, Philip Lipetz said:

Yes, notice as video. What matters most is the effective color resolution, and in that the BMPCC2 will be better. Introducing more spatial resolution without also increasing color resolution results in the video look. Something looks off, and it is discontinuity in color gradient  as it does not change at the same frequency as does the spatial information 

 

 

 

[mercer]

Cinematographers use diffusion filters on the Alexa and it’s only 2.7K, 3.3K at open gate. The problem is camera resolution has been decided upon by monitor and TV manufacturers. Now if you don’t shoot 4K, your image supposedly doesn’t have enough resolution?

In my opinion, I think a Pocket 2 could have had a 2.5K image and be equally as appealing. 4K at this price point, is usually best for downscaling, so it will be interesting for me to see what the downscale looks like from 4K P2 footage.

But for the most part, I’ll shoot 1080p at the two base ISOs, on a clean sensor, with cheap SD cards. I already have a bunch of Canon batteries for my 5D3, so if battery time is bad (I suspect about 30-45 minutes) I’ll just swap them out. I’ll get a Rode NTG mic, and maybe a couple XLR lavs, for in-camera audio and have an amazing little, run and gun cinema camera... no need to rig up this little beast.

[anonim]

50 minutes ago, amanieux said:

fair enough, we all have different taste for image . is human eyes+brain system more sensitive to resolution or to color ?

I suppose that you take into consideration that Blackmagic image is 12bit vs Sony's 8bit - and what does it mean?

About dilema between resolution/color as you put in regards A6500 vs BMPCC, I'd say that problem is that our eyes simply don't perceive too much resolution as natural when it is not support by enough color-gradient informations between pronounced border of details. So, even that what we can see in, say The Revenant, is not "natural" for our eye's discerning cappability - but because of enormous reserve of color nuances that mitigate result of oversharpness - our eyes more easily accommodate to that, what seems as new cinema-look paradigma.

[webrunner5]

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Correct. Day and night for first time with this new generation cameras to begin with EVA (solid name for : ) Why other than that? ; ) Dual base ISO there is 800 & 3200 though :-)

https://www.proav.co.uk/videos/blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-4k/

You are right about 800. 3200. But in the video the BM guy says at the same time he talked about the Dual IOS feature that the sensor in the new 4k BMPCC has Never been used before. Interesting. I remember that statement from before somewhere else also. So that means Maybe it is not the GH5s sensor??

[Danyyyel]

On 4/11/2018 at 9:44 PM, jonpais said:

Here's an interview with Bob Caniglia of Blackmagic holding the Pocket 4K and Panasonic 12-35mm f/2.8.

 

These bloggers have zero journalist skill, they keep asking 10 times the same question, if you are not the first on a news, take your time and try to ask different question or even if you can't record from the camera you have a big 5 inch display that you can zoom in. Take that fucking camera and comment at least what you are seeing. Take for example rolling shutter, I mean it is so easy to pan right left and have at leat an impression about rolling shutter, but until now zero. I don't know if he is an actor or what, it is as if he is chocking, when asking the price at least 3 times, as if the whole world didn't know it two days before.

[webrunner5]

20 hours ago, amanieux said:

the weakest point of this camera will be resolution : with only 8 mpix on a bayer mask it means that yuv information will be interpolated in 4k. a 24mpix sensor that scales downs to 4k like sony a6500 will have 3x more details and it will be very easy to notice. 

My Sony A7s Only has a 12mp sensor and it has one the the sharpest 1080p outputs there is. Same with the GH5s. You don't need 50mp sensors to get sharp stuff. Hell the Sony PMW F3 only has like a 3.2mp sensor in it and it has a beautiful 1080p output. Now yeah unlike the EVA1 that has a 5.7k sensor where maybe, not even sure if it does, sure it does, down samples to 4k will look a bit sharper. Same with the A6500 you mention, but the A63000, A6500 have the worse F ing looking 1080p output i the world. So sometimes it just doesn't make a crap how big of a sensor you have in them. Now yeah the A6500 has one of the best 4k output there is. Go figure.

[jonpais]

6 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You are right about 800. 3200. But in the video the BM guy says at the same time he talked about the Dual IOS feature that the sensor in the new 4k BMPCC has Never been used before. Interesting. I remember that statement from before somewhere else also. So that means Maybe it is not the GH5s sensor??

After re-watching the video, it became apparent that the spokesperson meant that BMD had never used that sensor before. 

4 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

These bloggers have zero journalist skill, they keep asking 10 times the same question, if you are not the first on a news, take your time and try to ask different question or even if you can't record from the camera you have a big 5 inch display that you can zoom in. Take that fucking camera and comment at least what you are seeing. Take for example rolling shutter, I mean it is so easy to pan right left and have at leat an impression about rolling shutter, but until now zero. I don't know if he is an actor or what, it is as if he is chocking, when asking the price at least 3 times, as if the whole world didn't know it two days before.

You mean to say you actually watched that video? I was just sharing it because of the wonderfully cinematic zoom lens on there. ?

[webrunner5]

4 minutes ago, jonpais said:

After re-watching the video, it became apparent that the spokesperson meant that BMD had never used that sensor before. 

He says it has not been used in ANY previous camera. Hard to say one way or the other. He never mentioned BMD.  We know but we don't.

[jonpais]

2 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

He says it has not been used in ANY previous camera. Hard to say one way or the other. He never mentioned BMD.  We know but we don't.

That’s what I thought at first, too. But according to @IronFilm, the spokesperson was just referring to BMD. And I was inclined to go along with that. 

[webrunner5]

5 minutes ago, jonpais said:

That’s what I thought at first, too. But according to @IronFilm, the spokesperson was just referring to BMD. And I was inclined to go along with that. 

It would be a first for BM. They have Never used a sensor that some one else has used before for any camera they have that I know of.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

You are right about 800. 3200. But in the video the BM guy says at the same time he talked about the Dual IOS feature that the sensor in the new 4k BMPCC has Never been used before. Interesting. I remember that statement from before somewhere else also. So that means Maybe it is not the GH5s sensor??

That Bob Caniglia from BMD about 1:25 minute also states 400 and 3200, so I know nothing for the subject matter :-)

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

It would be a first for BM. They have Never used a sensor that some one else has used before for any camera they have that I know of.

Their 4K sensor...

 

& they use sensors typically from the open market. I think they wouldn't care 

[hansel]

I am going to make a little carbon fibre visor to sheld of the vents from eating stuff it shouldn't. I wonder why they didn't put them at the exact place but on the bottom? Afraid I might get into a crazy freak accident being scalped, safety first boys ;D

[mkabi]

3 hours ago, Logan said:

I'll take color and recoverable information over pure resolution any day.

The real question is 4K too much for m4/3?

https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/5258-top-end-cinema-cameras-it-s-all-becoming-clearer

After reading that article, I can deduce that Arri who is a leader in the industry didn't feel that true 4K on super35 was a good fit so they went LF....

[Don Kotlos]

39 minutes ago, mkabi said:

The real question is 4K too much for m4/3?

https://www.redsharknews.com/production/item/5258-top-end-cinema-cameras-it-s-all-becoming-clearer

After reading that article, I can deduce that Arri who is a leader in the industry didn't feel that true 4K on super35 was a good fit so they went LF....

There are two main ways sensor size can affect the maximum resolution:

1)  The ability of a lens to resolve finer details than the distance between two neighboring pixels. 

 --> There are plenty of lenses that support far higher resolution than 4K so that's not a limit

2)  The ability of pixels to collect enough light. 

 --> Current m43 sensors with large pixels offer  ~13stops of dynamic range and excellent color information. 

So in short, in that article just suggesting that for 4K someone needs a LF sensor, is plain wrong and marketing bulshit. 

In general systems are far more limited by their processing pipeline than optics/sensor performance, and that's why offering RAW is such a big deal.

[mkabi]

1 hour ago, Don Kotlos said:

There are two main ways sensor size can affect the maximum resolution:

1)  The ability of a lens to resolve finer details than the distance between two neighboring pixels. 

 --> There are plenty of lenses that support far higher resolution than 4K so that's not a limit

2)  The ability of pixels to collect enough light. 

 --> Current m43 sensors with large pixels offer  ~13stops of dynamic range and excellent color information. 

So in short, in that article just suggesting that for 4K someone needs a LF sensor, is plain wrong and marketing bulshit. 

In general systems are far more limited by their processing pipeline than optics/sensor performance, and that's why offering RAW is such a big deal.

May be I should've been clearer.....

Of course, you can have 4K on a m43... You can also have 4K on a cellphone camera.... But is that really any good for image quality???

You can spout about lens resolving capabilities and pixels gathering light... But is that going to give you the best in image quality?

There are plenty of camera makers... Only one that thinks resolution is what matters most and that's Red.... Arri has never made a true 4K super35 sensor camera (which is bigger than m43). And, read that article.... It actually does not say, "...for 4K someone needs LF sensor...," but it does say that many of the high-end cinema cameras are moving to LF and most are 6K+ except Arri.... What does Arri know that the rest doesn't know???? 

[Don Kotlos]

28 minutes ago, mkabi said:

Of course, you can have 4K on a m43... You can also have 4K on a cellphone camera.... But is that really any good for image quality???

That is exactly what my answer was about. 

Quote

You can spout about lens resolving capabilities and pixels gathering light... But is that going to give you the best in image quality?

 These are the main factors that change with sensor size and affect image quality. Of course there are million other things that affect image quality. If you need 15 stops of dynamic range you have to go use a larger sensor currently (because sensor technology is also very important), but again image quality is far more limited by the processing pipeline than the sensor size. For example the original pocket with its tiny sensor, offered far better image quality than the majority of consumer 1080p cameras with sensor sizes even 8 times larger.  Also pixel resolution is not that important as most films you see in the cinema are in 2K and nobody complains about the resolution. Not to mention all the large sensor cinema cameras that are used professionally and have less dynamic range than the tiny sensor from the pocket. Another example is the GH5s that many argue it offers better or at least similar quality to the A7sII but with a sensor ~4 times smaller. 

But let's not deviate from your original question:

Quote

The real question is 4K too much for m4/3?

No.

[RWR]

17 hours ago, Nathan Gabriel said:

do hope Blackmagic have already bought up a boatload of the sensors.

Yeah..I hope this wasn't one of the manufacturing issues that Petty said is yet to figure out. It would be a good question for someone to ask in his next interview...keep him from demoing selfies with this cam

[Trek of Joy]

1 hour ago, RWR said:

Yeah..I hope this wasn't one of the manufacturing issues that Petty said is yet to figure out. It would be a good question for someone to ask in his next interview...keep him from demoing selfies with this cam

If that's really a Sony sensor, I doubt that's going to be the cause of any production issues. Now a carbon fiber body being mass produced to meet tolerances, proper lens mount alignments and such seems a little more dicey IMO. I get they wanted to save weight, but a more traditional magnesium skeleton seems like it would be a little more robust. I'm curious if there will be any flex with larger lenses.