Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[jonpais]

It sounds like all of us are just projecting our own favorite camera brand to be the next.  

[mercer]

17 minutes ago, Rick said:

But my BMPCC has SO MUCH MORE skin texture at proresHQ than i have seen in my a7s II, or a6500, or in any DSLR/M footage that iam pretty sold to BM when it comes to "aliveness" of skin. Maybe i could achieve a similar result with proper post-production but thats time. And time is money. BM does also try do achieve a pleasing grain instead of digital looking noise. I guess thats why they call their cameras "cinema".

For small file sized just shoot prores proxy, or prores lt in full sensor FHD. Just bake in you own lut and you may not even have to "grade" in post.

I agree, I shoot ML Raw now and have shot ProRes HQ from both the Micro and the Pocket, in the past, for the textures... skin, buildings, trees... it really is mind blowing to see the almost 3D detail effect Raw and ProRes have on textures in footage. I tried going back to consumer cameras but I just couldn’t.

With P2, I am mostly excited for it FHD capabilities, and really interested to see how the baked in LUTS work with LT footage. For certain run and gun narrative ideas I have... this could be a game changer. However exposure could be a little more tricky than just setting the zebras to 90... false color should be great for this I guess... expose for skin tones or close. And then a slight correction in post and done.

2 minutes ago, jonpais said:

It sounds like all of us are just projecting our own favorite camera brand to be the next.  

That sounds about right. None of them will do it at the P2 price point anyway. If any of them integrate it internally, it won’t be in a camera lower than the GH5... and I doubt Panasonic would do it with the GH5 either, this will be a $2500 camera feature. The major camera manufacturers won’t risk pissing off consumers with huge file sizes and time consuming post.

[Logan]

16 minutes ago, mercer said:

I’ll probably get shunned for this, but I think Canon will be the first to do it. I believe they’re the only major that has an in camera Raw recording. So I think a future XC20, or 5D5 or 7D3 may have, at least, 1080p RawLite.

I doubt the P2 is really on their radar except for the competition the C200 is getting from the Ursa Pro. Now the Ursa Pro has a B-Cam with the P2.

Obviously, this will probably never happen, but I never thought Canon would release any camera that shot Raw, so who knows. 

If that happens I'll eat my shoe.

[mercer]

1 minute ago, Logan said:

If that happens I'll eat my shoe.

Did you read BMCuser after the C200 was announced... I think there may have been some laces dangling from their mouths. 

[Logan]

Just now, mercer said:

Did you read BMCuser after the C200 was announced... I think there may have been some laces dangling from their mouths. 

There is a big difference between Canon's cinema line and the SLR cameras.

[mercer]

1 minute ago, Logan said:

There is a big difference between Canon's cinema line and the SLR cameras.

Oh I know and I even agree it’s unlikely... but I get surprised/disappointed by Canon all the time... so I just wouldn’t be shocked. 

But also the P2 is a cinema camera, just shaped like a pregnant DSLM and just a very well specced cheap one. It’s doubtful we’ll see Raw video in any consumer camera under $2500 from any major brand... they’ll never risk the backlash from consumers.

Honestly, I don’t know if any of them will ever do it. Maybe whatever the GH5s turns into in its next generation, but I think it will be under a different moniker at a higher price point. But at under $2000, I don’t know if there is enough of a market demand for it.

[anonim]

2 hours ago, Axel said:

The usability of the Sony mirrorless hybrids borders on bad intent. I hate to take my A6500 out of the bag. Everything about it already feels wrong. For video. It's a little better for stills.

A lot of that is personal preference of course. Ask vlogger Max Yuryev, and he explains why he prefers Sony over Panasonic.

RAW is a little overrated. If a camera has a good color science, a good codec and good profiles, that's enough. It's not the codec. So this to every GH5 owner, who is interested in the Pocket *just* because of RAW: forget it. 

I should have bought the GH5 (after happy years with GH2). I know that the BMPCC4k will bring a lot of problems, challenges. But also a lot of fun. You love it or you hate it.

 

I was/am lucky to had/have all BM cameras under Ursa line and all GHx.

From my experience I can say just what you and most of other members already know: shooting in raw is, after all, exclusive and most important value of BM vs Panasonic. Actually, in version P2 it may be also and monitor, but if its quality is as P1, than - not. Everything else is unimportant for those who enjoy shooting in raw. Price +/– 500$, viewfinders, battery, rigs, cards, all of that is, I think, secondary... For me, personally, even higher bit rate, even sound.

But - raw, in fact, nowaday doesn't mean any significantly better final image comparing with great codec-science of newer GH5/s - power of raw is in the process of shooting. It still provides more freedom and left much more time for concentration on compositing process and polishing aesthetic before clicking record button. Mistakes of WB, even a worry about light, are completely or much more forgiving with raw. So, for those whose primary goal is concentrated in highly accurate and controlled filming (be it 1 hour on a day or more) - raw means more enjoyable (less painful) action. Shooting in raw is more similar to act of painting once when problems with rigging/stabilization are solved (which is not easy with BM! and that's why I am, as compromise, settled with GH5 ) - someone can more easy "lost" himself in quasipainting shooting because of higher simplicity of mobilized actions. Further more relaxant using of files in postproduction has also, I think, some similarity with bigger painter's palette.

Having said that, Panasonic non-raw codecs are also some sort of technician's art - after using all models in line from GH1, for me it is impressive how much grading potential have 10bit files after continual codec progress/refining.  

That's all from my perspective, experience and equal love for BM and Panny. I must admit that I'm, in fact, using Panasonic as BM with stabilization - don't liking  too much usage of slow motion on narrative, for me might be enough just 24p, and it always turns out that I'm somehow too stupid for proper  usage of AF lenses... so I've tested and sold near all AF m43 lenses, even Oly 75mm... (Turning around mechanical aperture ring also calms me down... of course, with "buttery smooth" mechanic focus ring I'm already in the little private heaven.)

 

[Damphousse]

4 hours ago, jonpais said:

The pricing does seem unusual to me. This is like midrange consumer ILC territory, like the G85. When the original Pocket was released, it was selling for what, $995.00? And the GH3 retailed for $1,300.00 at the time I believe. So the Pocket was 30% less than the Panasonic. Now, the Pocket II is going up against the GH5s, so 50% less. And yet many think this is going to kill off not only the Lumix, but many of the lower end cinema cameras as well, at least for budget filmmaking. Before anyone goes off on me, I'm not knocking it, just thinking out loud.

I bought my pocket new for less than $500 so this type of pricing is not unprecedented.  It is an unbelievable deal... so people keep not believing which is fine.  More deals for me.

3 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Not to knock it, but as soon as a future GH5 or X-H1 or A7S gets 4K raw internal, what reason would there be to buy the Pocket?

Price.

Panasonic GH camera price goes up, up, up with each iteration.  Currently the GH5 is $2,000 at reputable retailers with no Davinci Resolve.  GH5s with no internal raw is $2,500.  Add internal Raw?  Say hello $3,000.  Sure the GH series has certain features some people will really want but for me $1,300 with full Resolve is a much better deal.  My depreciation on the camera after years of use will be a few hundred dollars at most.  Panny?  Thousands.

All those cameras will have their markets but $1,300 is hard to beat.

4 hours ago, Axel said:

Pocket and Lumix share something, but it's hard to say what it is exactly. I'd say the Pocket 4k in a way is like a minimalist GH5 or GH5S. The naive fallacy was to think the BM came cheaper. Without IS it definitely needs some kind of rig (imho the less the better). It needs stabilization more desperately than the HD Pocket, and it may be harder to operate on a gimbal (no CAF, the AF is just a function that sets focus once, but doesn't keep it during the shot). It also has no flip out screen, so an external monitor might be necessary (one has to see how good the display is). It doesn't stop there. After two or three month you make a list. And if you add all expenses you might find that you could as well have bought a GH5.

You can use the IS on Canon lenses with a speedbooster.  That is what I do with my BMPCC.  I also use tripods.  I am in the market for a monopod.  A gimble is also in my future.

IBIS does not trounce raw for me, and I suspect many people share that sentiment.  It is amazing how internal raw was the holy grail for half a decade and now people are treating it like trash.  IBIS is great.  But it is not the top feature for everyone.

4 hours ago, cantsin said:

The Pocket 4K doesn't have AF, a flip/tilt display, an EVF, weather sealing, fanless operation, WIFI (including remote monitoring), will have only rudimentary still photography functions, and may require IR cut filters on the lens.

A lot of people who are now considering the Pocket 4K as an alternative to the GH5/s may find out that their shooting style is severely limited by these missing features.

I have a BMPCC and besides crappy AF literally none of that affected my shooting.  Wifi?!  Really?!  Alfred Hitchcock is rolling over in his grave.  A film student saying they can't make a film because... ya know... no wifi!

Full Davinci Resolve and internal raw DCI 4k for $1,300... and this is the complaint list?!

4 hours ago, cantsin said:

And, as @Snowfun wrote above, the two cameras aren't in the same market. You can't even buy a Blackmagic Camera at a normal photo camera retailer.

I've never seen a Panasonic GH camera at any photo retailer in the cities I've lived in.  I've posted about this numerous times.  Most people aren't even aware of the Panasonic GH series.  You go into a retailer it is all Canon and Nikon with a bit of Sony tossed in there.  Some random Panny stuff shows up but the high end Sony and Panny stuff is nowhere to be seen.  Everywhere reputable that sells Panny GH also sells Blackmagic.

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, SR said:

It'd be a win-win, if they did. But they didn't react to the earlier Blackmagic cameras, I doubt they will with this one either. 

Well, Canon did it on RED in the last decade... : ) Even earlier the C-line series of today to have launched as following step ;-)

[jonpais]

13 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

It is amazing how internal raw was the holy grail for half a decade and now people are treating it like trash. 

Thanks for your input. However, I'm not seeing anyone here dissing RAW. On the contrary, I think there appears to be a lot of interest in it.

[Emanuel]

Let alone the 10-bit mantra... :-D

[cantsin]

57 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

I have a BMPCC and besides crappy AF literally none of that affected my shooting.  Wifi?!  Really?!  Alfred Hitchcock is rolling over in his grave.  A film student saying they can't make a film because... ya know... no wifi!

Full Davinci Resolve and internal raw DCI 4k for $1,300... and this is the complaint list?!

I've never seen a Panasonic GH camera at any photo retailer in the cities I've lived in.  I've posted about this numerous times.  Most people aren't even aware of the Panasonic GH series.  You go into a retailer it is all Canon and Nikon with a bit of Sony tossed in there.  Some random Panny stuff shows up but the high end Sony and Panny stuff is nowhere to be seen.  Everywhere reputable that sells Panny GH also sells Blackmagic.

@Damphousse, I wasn't writing about me, but about most  prosumer video shooters who will buy the camera and get frustrated just as masses of DSLR/mirrorless shooters got frustated with the first-generation Pocket. (It's one of the cameras with almost unlimited supply on the second-hand market.) You can see it on Blackmagic's forum where people now start demanding electronic in-body stabilization (!) for the Pocket4K, apparently without knowing what kind of camera (concept) they're dealing with.

Over here in Europe, Blackmagic cameras are only available in professional AV/video equipment retail (i.e. vendors like CVP or Marcotec) whereas Panasonic GH cameras can be bought at any good camera store.

[Trek of Joy]

Interesting quote from John Brawley about the cooling on the P4k:

"Like all other BMD cameras, the fan is a constant on and hasn’t really been a problem as far as I’ve ever “heard”. The camera doens’t cool with a fan. Like ALexa, they use a solid state cooling system, piped to a heat sink. There the fan ensures the heat escapes quietly. So not like a Sony or RED where you suddenly get loud fan noises. Like an Alexa where it’s constant and quiet."

[John Brawley]

On 4/13/2018 at 10:26 AM, webrunner5 said:

It would be a first for BM. They have Never used a sensor that some one else has used before for any camera they have that I know of.

Err..

AJA Cion

Axiom

Ursa

Ursa Mini 4K

BMD 4K Production Camera

JB

[mercer]

Maybe with @John Brawley ‘s input, Olympus could be another contender for Raw video at a sub $2000 price point... Olympus’ superior IBIS and Raw does sound pretty amazing. 

[Trek of Joy]

4 hours ago, Logan said:

Because Sony has been showing that they will push tech down quickly to gain marketshare. Panasonic is leading the way right now, but I'm guessing Sony will make the jump first to steal userbase. I hope I'm wrong and they all add it into their range, but we'll see. 

Ehhh, not so much outside of their own sensors and AF. Sony takes the best sensor and then finds every way to cut corners in order to maintain margins. UHS-I card slots in a 42mp camera, no intervalometer like literally every other brand has, no PP's on the flagship and so on - SMH. They rolled with that crappy 28mbps AVCHD for a couple years past its shelf life and now we're seeing the same lazy 8-bit, 100mbps video in every subsequent camera they've released. A73 video looks like a lot of NR at higher ISO's, its smoke and mirrors with the blogger junkets raving about revolutionary features (eye AF, HDR video!). The gulf between the alphas and the FS line is pretty wide. And with the recent mk3's getting the same lazy video spec, it'll be awhile before anything changes since we probably won't see a new a7 body for another 2 years. The a7s3 is still a mystery at this point and at best it gets 8- 4k60p, the FS5mkII showed exactly where the alphas will not tread. They haven't even added higher bitrates or 10-bit to the alpha lineup - Canon will have a raw hybrid camera before Sony. But I agree with Jon, the first big player with raw will be Panasonic IMO, because as a hybrid camera Panasonic falls short on the stills side, so they need every edge they can get on the video side. Geez, Fuji has even passed Sony on the video side - again my opinion - but the 200mbps stuff out of the XH1 is a step above what the a7's can do. For all their technical prowess, they're hell bent on protecting the FS line, compared to the competition Sony's video has become just meh... All I can say is I'd be genuinely shocked if Sony is first to raw in a hybrid.

I hope sales of the P4k move into GH5/A7s territory or even exceed them, that's the only way the bigger players will respond - when it puts a dent in their bottom lines. Sadly it'll likely be a small volume enthusiast niche camera, leaving us stuck with incremental "upgrades." How long has it been since the original Blackmagic Cinema camera - that goofy silver box with the crappy rear screen? Its been 5 or so years, right? Still no sub $4000 raw from any of the major players.

Chris

[Axel]

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

You can use the IS on Canon lenses with a speedbooster.  That is what I do with my BMPCC.

Interesting. Didn't know hat.

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

I also use tripods.  I am in the market for a monopod.  A gimble is also in my future.

Yes, tripods. Have a look at the Sirui monopod. It's fantastic:

This is the carbon version. I have the aluminum version, cost 160€ in a regular shop.

I am also planning to use a gimbal, own the Ronin M (too big) and the Zhiyun Crane ("1"). We could use hyperfocal distance instead of AF. Or we use something like this.

Most of all, I have the best idea for a new "rig". Consisting of parts for under 10€. 

@John Brawley

Please tell us: 

Will there be something you can show us in advance?

[Turboguard]

1 hour ago, Axel said:

Interesting. Didn't know hat.

Yes, tripods. Have a look at the Sirui monopod. It's fantastic:

This is the carbon version. I have the aluminum version, cost 160€ in a regular shop.

I am also planning to use a gimbal, own the Ronin M (too big) and the Zhiyun Crane ("1"). We could use hyperfocal distance instead of AF. Or we use something like this.

Most of all, I have the best idea for a new "rig". Consisting of parts for under 10€. 

@John Brawley

Please tell us: 

Will there be something you can show us in advance?

I own that Sirui and LOVE it. 

[Eduardo Granadsztejn]

The "mojo" of any Blackmagic (including the pocket) is unique. 

The film texture unmatchable, there is no Sony, Panasonic or even Canon at that price point.

We must wait until see the real footage of this one, and the posible problems of hardware (hope none)

And wait until the A7s mark 3 specs (2,5 times the cost of this)

What do you think about the BMPCC4K against the A7III? ($ 700 more)

 

Regards!

[Cambob3000]

12 hours ago, Snuff said:

I have recently got for my old Pocket a good power solution. It works more than 5 hours with this power bank powered by 5x hi quality 18650 batteries. You can also put it in a cell phone tripod mount to attach it to the camera. You need to get a LEMO connector to power a new BMPCC4K. 

1. Power Bank 5x18650 QD 185-TY ($20.8) https://www.dhgate.com/product/18650-power-bank-case-battery-holder-output/388633847.html

Size: 13cm* 8cm*2.0cm (5.1' x 3' x 0.8').

2. 5x VariCore New Original 18650 NCR18650B Rechargeable Li-ion battery 3.7V 3400mAh ($14.7) https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/4pcs-lot-2015-100-New-Original18650-3-7V-3400mah-NCR18650B-Lithium-Rechargeable-Battery-For-Panasonic-batteries/32433452171.html

3. Universal Cell Phone Tripod Mount ($3.9) https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/OOTDTY-Universal-Cell-Phone-Tripod-Mount-Clipper-Vertical-Bracket-Holder-360-Degree-Adjustable-4XFC-Drop-Ship/32833106727.html

3. 2 pin LEMO connector for BMPCC4K ($7.3) https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/LEMO-Connector-FGG-0B-2-3-4-5-6-7-9-Pin-Male-Connector-0B-FGG/32836029840.html

 

I don't believe the pocket 4k uses a standard 2 pin lemo. The male pins are inside of the camera, where on the Lemo connector the male pins are in the connector.