Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[Tone1k]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

 

Just offering a £50 SDI output option to be honest

 

Fair enough but converters require power and the whole thing just starts to get messy. 

Maybe they didn't want to canibilise their  own micro cameras and Ursa Broadcast. If the Pocket had sdi, people would want sdi control and start using it for multicam as it's an extremely attractive camera. HDMI only means that can't be done. 

On one hand you have a pocket camera that people think is aimed at Vloggers and amatures because of the price and on the other hand BM have given the Pocket 4k RAW, phantom powered XLR, locking Lemo for power, LTC timecode input, CFast slot plus many other features that clearly a vlogger or amature won't really use. 

Terrible marketing in their part really as I suppose they do say themselves that it's aimed at those lower end users. 

 

 

[tyger11]

Really, if they had gone with SDI instead of HDMI and bumped up the price to $1500, I think most people in the market for what the P4K can do would be very happy, but no matter what port you leave out or limitation you build in, somebody is going to be unhappy. I think it's unfortunate they've limited the HDMI to 1080p, but in the end, it's not that big a deal considering the other options. I'd only use it for framing, but if BM decides not to put ProRes raw in this camera, that was the last chance to get it via an external recorder at full resolution.

[DBounce]

With the exception of locking connections the HDMI standard is superior to SDI. It supports 18GBit/s vs SDI’s 3Gb, 6Gb or 12Gb/s options. Longer runs can be accomplished with cat6. 

 

The official hdmi spec is as follows:

up to 16 bit RGB / 4:4:4 / 4:2:2 @30hz

If HDMI spec is not good enough for you, where exactly are you planning to play back your content, as everything supports the HDMI spec anyway?

[Tone1k]

24 minutes ago, DBounce said:

With the exception of locking connections the HDMI standard is superior to SDI. It supports 18GBit/s vs SDI’s 3Gb, 6Gb or 12Gb/s options. Longer runs can be accomplished with cat6. 

 

The official hdmi spec is as follows:

up to 16 bit RGB / 4:4:4 / 4:2:2 @30hz

If HDMI spec is not good enough for you, where exactly are you planning to play back your content, as everything supports the HDMI spec anyway?

The HDMI spec is pointless on this camera for two reasons. The camera only outputs 1080p via HDMI so you're not getting the HDMI spec benefits anyway. Secondly, even if they did enable 4k RAW out of the HDMI port, why would you choose to record it externally when you have better options in camera that don't rely on a risky connection that HDMI provides. 

It's not the tech spec of SDI that I want. 

I only need 1080p for monitoring but a SDI BNC connection is far more secure and I guarantee you that a BNC connection will outlast a flimsy HDMI port. 

[Tone1k]

On 30/04/2018 at 5:39 AM, Anaconda_ said:

I've been building up a shopping list for when this comes in the post and I noticed something pretty strange here. 

The Samsung T5 drive prices are: 500gb - €173 or 1tb - €385

By my math, you save €40, if you just get 2 500gb drives, and that's going to be much easier to manage. You can then also split the costs over time if you need to. 

Similarly, the WD SSD USBc drives (which are tiny by the way) are priced: 512gb - €169 or 1tb - €355

So you save €15 and get an extra 24gb if you get 2 x 512gb

Does that strike you as strange? I always thought if you get the bigger drive, you'd save some money. 

EDIT:

The 250gb T5 is €109 and 256gb WD is €107, so you do save money if you get the 500gb/512gb versions. I wonder why this 'saving' isn't replicated on even further. 

FYI, I believe the Samsung T5 has a much faster write speed than the WD USBc drive.

[kye]

5 hours ago, Tone1k said:

On one hand you have a pocket camera that people think is aimed at Vloggers and amatures because of the price and on the other hand BM have given the Pocket 4k RAW, phantom powered XLR, locking Lemo for power, LTC timecode input, CFast slot plus many other features that clearly a vlogger or amature won't really use. 

I'm not sure what media that vloggers would end up using.

Options appear to be:

• SD cards - depending on what data rate is required (4K60 RAW would be huge!) the SD card might be quite costly!
• Cfast cards - might be cheaper than really fast SD cards?
• USB-C HDD - depending on the features and sizes these might also be in the running for cheapest media - would also add some bulk to the rig of course.

I don't think you can assume that SD cards are cheapest option without doing further analysis, and the answer might depend on resolution / frame rates / codec choice.

Vloggers might also own CFast cards already..  I do for my XC10, and any 5DIII or 1DX users will also have them.

hang on, the 5D might be Compact-Flash?  maybe strike the 5D..

[Tone1k]

4 minutes ago, kye said:

I'm not sure what media that vloggers would end up using.

Options appear to be:

• SD cards - depending on what data rate is required (4K60 RAW would be huge!) the SD card might be quite costly!
• Cfast cards - might be cheaper than really fast SD cards?
• USB-C HDD - depending on the features and sizes these might also be in the running for cheapest media - would also add some bulk to the rig of course.

I don't think you can assume that SD cards are cheapest option without doing further analysis, and the answer might depend on resolution / frame rates / codec choice.

Vloggers might also own CFast cards already..  I do for my XC10, and any 5DIII or 1DX users will also have them.

hang on, the 5D might be Compact-Flash?  maybe strike the 5D..

Please don't tell me there are Vloggers out there that would shoot 4k60p RAW! 

We shoot a lot of higher end TVC's / docs on the Alexa Mini and even then shoot ProRes. 

Don't get me wrong, RAW is great, but no vlogger needs it. 

ProRes to SD Cards is all a vlogger needs. 

[jonpais]

8 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Please don't tell me there are Vloggers out there that would shoot 4k60p RAW! 

We shoot a lot of higher end TVC's / docs on the Alexa Mini and even then shoot ProRes. 

Don't get me wrong, RAW is great, but no vlogger needs it. 

ProRes to SD Cards is all a vlogger needs. 

According to Jeromy Young, founder and CEO of Atomos, 80% of productions are now done in ProRes. 

[kye]

21 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Please don't tell me there are Vloggers out there that would shoot 4k60p RAW! 

Hmmm..  you have a point!!

Personally, I would consider it, but would do AB tests with prores first to see what difference there was.  My primary interest would be to capture in such a way that I could digitally zoom quite significantly into the image if I needed to in post.  This would likely be in 4K60 Prores, which I would be treating kind of like a 2x zoom for 1080 or even a 4x zoom which if IQ was good should be passable for the occasional shot.

Of course, I'm shooting infrequent videos that I hope will form the history of my family, rather than daily/weekly videos with a half-life of only a few days!

[Axel]

8 hours ago, Tone1k said:

On one hand you have a pocket camera that people think is aimed at Vloggers and amatures because of the price and on the other hand BM have given the Pocket 4k RAW, phantom powered XLR, locking Lemo for power, LTC timecode input, CFast slot plus many other features that clearly a vlogger or amature won't really use. 

I guess few here had the chance to deal with raw video. Most of us will take raw stills though, but probably not on a regular basis. Some thoughts on what to expect of P4k's raw:

Among those who shoot stills in raw rather than jpegs are many who are accustomed to Adobe Camera Raw. There are alternatives to it, I know two from own experience: the free Raw Therapee and Affinity Photo (where all raw photos go into the develop persona).

ACR had become so popular that Adobe made it easy to also open jpegs with it (>Top Menu >Filter). Many (including myself) do that, simply because the tools are so powerful and intuitive.

Don't expect raw to look the same in the other apps! The obvious choice for CDNGs from the P4k is Resolve. Resolve also has a CAMERA RAW tool, but it isn't as mighty as ACR. It's main advantage for CDNG is realtime playback, obviously. I can't understand why Adobe doesn't make an AMotionCR, would be a guaranteed success (though it is possible to develop CDNG with ACR and export the image sequence with sound through After Effects, it's a cumbersome process. You can only "grade" one frame for the whole clip).

You will see a difference between raw and, say, XAVC. You will see a difference between XAVC and ProRes as well. Perhaps. Some feel that ProRes is clearly superior, some say that the difference is either insignificant or even that H.265 is better. Go download the hijacked clip and judge for yourself. 

What's my own opinion? ProRes will provide better performance on my Mac. As cantsin pointed out, there isn't (yet?) a smooth highlight rolloff, and all in all the DR doesn't look worse on my A6500. But the image is very clean, and the color science clearly is better. We will also have a third ProRes profile (VIDEO, FILM (=log) and HLG), and that's terrific. Many vloggers will bake in a LUT, and why wouldn't they if the results convince?

Then there is the old Pocket and it's 1080 raw. The sensor had 1080 x 1920 pixels and (I don't pretend to fully understand the background here) that wasn't enough for full debayering. It's the same situation here. There will be some moire and other resolution related artifacts in raw, and there will be much *less* in ProRes. Because of that situation, many won't use raw after initial tests.

I could go on for a page or two, but it already became TLDR. Just one more thought: how will 1080 look? If it's good, many will use 1080 raw.

[Anaconda_]

Can you use cfast 1.0 in the 2.0 slot? If so, what resolution and formats are reasonable to expect?

Cfast 1.0 is rated at 80mb/s

[Anaconda_]

I'm too late to edit my above question, but I've just read that Cfast 2.0 USB readers can read Cfast 1.0 cards, so it stands to reason, the camera will as well. It's just a case of working out if you can record anything to them worthwhile. Is it worth having it in there if you can only record 1080p25 proxy? Or might it manage 4k LT? To know, we'll just have to wait until they arrive.

Also, there's some very basic questions being asked, but in the interest of having the latest info:

[Kisaha]

It has SD, CF AND usb-c, which none other has. It records internal raw and various ProRes. I see no issues here, only options, and no external recorders/monitors needed (but I will be really happy to use my Focus on this one). 

[Nathan Gabriel]

18 hours ago, Tone1k said:

Please don't tell me there are Vloggers out there that would shoot 4k60p RAW! 

We shoot a lot of higher end TVC's / docs on the Alexa Mini and even then shoot ProRes. 

Don't get me wrong, RAW is great, but no vlogger needs it. 

ProRes to SD Cards is all a vlogger needs. 

My editing machine has really slow read write for SD and cfast cards (because my card reader uses a usb2 standard for it's connection to the motherboard), but it also has fast usb3 connections. If I needed really fast turnaround, which I don't, I could see myself going with USB-C SSDs just for the faster transfer, or possibly editing the video without even copying it to my internal hard drive. This would have nothing to do with recording raw, but I could see it as a reason vloggers might go with USB-C drives over SD cards. But maybe it's cheaper to invest in an external USB 3 card reader. I'm not sure how it would all work out. Maybe I could already edit directly from SD cards despite the slow read since so much of the project gets loaded into memory. Anyone have experience editing directly from their recording media?

[Parker]

23 minutes ago, Nathan Gabriel said:

My editing machine has really slow read write for SD and cfast cards (because my card reader uses a usb2 standard for it's connection to the motherboard), but it also has fast usb3 connections. If I needed really fast turnaround, which I don't, I could see myself going with USB-C SSDs just for the faster transfer, or possibly editing the video without even copying it to my internal hard drive. This would have nothing to do with recording raw, but I could see it as a reason vloggers might go with USB-C drives over SD cards. But maybe it's cheaper to invest in an external USB 3 card reader. I'm not sure how it would all work out. Maybe I could already edit directly from SD cards despite the slow read since so much of the project gets loaded into memory. Anyone have experience editing directly from their recording media?

I don't edit directly with my recording media (I mean I have, occasionally, for super quick, tiny little projects, off of SD cards) but for the past couple months I have been editing all of my projects off of my Samsung T5 USB-C ssd, which is what most will be using with the new pocket, and it works perfectly. Super tiny, light, and incredibly fast. Once I get my my hands on this wonderful-looking new cam, recording with the Sammy and then editing immediately should be a breeze. 

[mercer]

Why in God’s name would a vlogger use the Pocket 2?

[kye]

8 hours ago, Kisaha said:

It has SD, CF AND usb-c, which none other has. It records internal raw and various ProRes. I see no issues here, only options, and no external recorders/monitors needed (but I will be really happy to use my Focus on this one). 

Need for an external monitor depends on how you use it.  If camera is on a tripod then you're probably fine, but if you're hand-holding for an ability to quickly get a variety of shots then you might miss a screen that can't articulate vertically.  In terms of hand-holding I can hand-hold my XC10 / Gorillapod 5K setup with my arms fully outstretched at 240mm steady enough so that the IS locks the shot with no movement, so it is possible.

3 hours ago, mercer said:

Why in God’s name would a vlogger use the Pocket 2?

Depends on the vlogger and what you'd call a "vlogger" (as opposed to many other styles of YT film-making).  I see YouTubers with A7SII / Atomos external recorders, C300s, C100s, 1DXII, A7RIII, GH5, GH5s, EVA, etc.  If you definition of 'vlogger' is only people that prattle endlessly into the selfie camera on their phone while walking somewhere to get their nails done, then your definition needs expanding radically.  I'm happy to provide examples of YT channels with high production value if you're interested.

[Anaconda_]

53 minutes ago, kye said:

Need for an external monitor depends on how you use it.  If camera is on a tripod then you're probably fine, but if you're hand-holding for an ability to quickly get a variety of shots then you might miss a screen that can't articulate vertically.

Even then it's not so simple. BM have photos of this camera being used in a multicam setup with one operator. If I was that operator, I'd have all the cameras linked up to monitors and have the monitors in a line.

Similarly, I regularly shoot interviews and ask the questions, I always have a monitor on a tripod next to me to check focus and framing during the conversation. The lens poking right over my shoulder, so it's easy to reach up and adjust focus/framing if the talent moves a little bit.

On top of that, if someone else is conducting the interview and I'm filming. More often than not everyone is sitting down, apart from me. Having monitor on top of the camera means I won't break my back leaning down to see the frame the whole time. 

Point being, tripod shots will also benefit from a monitor.

[andrgl]

4 hours ago, mercer said:

Why in God’s name would a vlogger use the Pocket 2?

Why not? At least it's a little smaller than...

 

[Axel]

1 hour ago, kye said:

If you definition of 'vlogger' is only people that prattle endlessly into the selfie camera on their phone while walking somewhere to get their nails done, then your definition needs expanding radically.  I'm happy to provide examples of YT channels with high production value if you're interested.

Thanks, kye!

Yesterday I saw this, and became so angry that I - almost - downvoted the video, something I'd never done before:

This tells me, of course, that I already am a true P4k fanboy . Be it as it may, I also watched a GH5s review (not the first one, not my last one, despite my admitted fixation to BM). It showcased the ergonomics and built quality. The vlogger said: what a pity! It's got everything I asked for, even *very good* lowlight through Dual Native ISO, but the AF sucks and no IS, epic fail!

Was again tempted to vote "thumbs down". But how had this been justified? I had bingewatched vlogger's vomit all evening!

Last report, this a funny one. About Sony A7iii, and how it smoked, killed and destroyed the whole competition. Yes, it's 'a full frame MONSTER', it has IS, it has AF, but that's the extent of it. Terrible ergonomics (as usual), threadbare 8-bit codecs, he dumb thing smokes itself. I'm allowed to say, as a Sony owner. It's a Phony.