Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[anonim]

12 minutes ago, jonpais said:

The button placement indicates that his company is forward thinking.

Whole showing-selling strategy looks as based on certain rethinking of notion of forwardness.

[Damphousse]

The absurdity of the complaints tells me this camera is going to be a hit.  People really expect a $1,000 camera to have SDI ports?!  There are complaints because for $1,000 a USB C port that outputs raw is tossed in just for fun?!

My how times have changed.  Looking back at what people were begging for three years ago I am rolling with laughter with the critiques in this thread.  If you don't want the camera don't buy it.  But please stop pretending this thing isn't damn near perfect.

Honestly if I were the people at Blackmagic I would tell a bunch of people to f off.  This camera is totally unprecedented.  They've given you the codecs and the ports.  It is up to you to figure out some hacks to make it work just the way you would like.

[Anaconda_]

19 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

They've given you the codecs and the ports.  It is up to you to figure out some hacks to make it work just the way you would like.

I think a majority of this thread is doing just that. Figuring out just how to make the most of the ports and options it gives and maximizing the life of said ports.

Of course there have been a few complaints along the way, but not many considering the length of this thread.

I'm fairly sure everyone here will have this camera within a year of its release, and by then the specs and how the camera can be used will all be more concrete.

With the little info there is to go on right now, all there is to do is talk about the various ports,  which cards to use and how useful that second record button will actually be.

I think for the most part. The main people complaining are the people complaining about people who are excited about this camera and want to talk about.

I think this quote regarding Twitter applies here:

On Twitter, people sometimes say, “Why don’t you keep your opinions to yourself?” I go, “You’re following me. I didn’t tweet at you.” That’s like going to a notice board in the middle of town, seeing a sign for guitar lessons, and yelling, “I DON’T WANT guitar lessons!” Well, it wasn’t for you.

 

[Damphousse]

4 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

Of course there have been a few complaints along the way, but not many considering the length of this thread.

Yeah, the majority has been positive.  I just got rubbed the wrong way by some of the complaints about the full size HDMI, the USB-C that outputs raw,  and the front button placement.  No one is forcing anyone to use any of those options.  You can ignore all of them and have a perfectly fine $1,000 4k raw recording camera.  If Blackmagic throws in an extra button for free and someone doesn't like it they can just ignore it.  Screaming vloggers shouldn't use this camera is ridiculous.

[Don Kotlos]

Don't confuse criticism with dismissal. I haven't seen anyone here saying the BMPv2 is not great. Especially for the price. It is hard not to advise anyone to get this camera.

But it is not ridiculous to claim that for handheld vlogging there are better solutions. Making such a big deal about the front facing button while there is little to no AF or a front facing screen is effort misplaced in my opinion. Of course you can use it as vlogging camera. Zone focus, use a lens with OIS and you can get excellent color as well. 

[LORDD]

Panasonic has just announced an update for GH5 and GH5S, improvements in focus and image, to see what they surprise us with.

[webrunner5]

9 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

Don't confuse criticism with dismissal. I haven't seen anyone here saying the BMPv2 is not great. Especially for the price. It is hard not to advise anyone to get this camera.

But it is not ridiculous to claim that for handheld vlogging there are better solutions. Making such a big deal about the front facing button while there is little to no AF or a front facing screen is effort misplaced in my opinion. 

I agree with completely with you, and in this day and age of super wide angle lenses, which have NEVER been available before for Any price, how much of a big deal is AF on them at say F 5.6? How can you not be in focus?

[Tone1k]

 

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

The absurdity of the complaints tells me this camera is going to be a hit.  People really expect a $1,000 camera to have SDI ports?!  There are complaints because for $1,000 a USB C port that outputs raw is tossed in just for fun?!

My how times have changed.  Looking back at what people were begging for three years ago I am rolling with laughter with the critiques in this thread.  If you don't want the camera don't buy it.  But please stop pretending this thing isn't damn near perfect.

Honestly if I were the people at Blackmagic I would tell a bunch of people to f off.  This camera is totally unprecedented.  They've given you the codecs and the ports.  It is up to you to figure out some hacks to make it work just the way you would like.

 

3 hours ago, Damphousse said:

Yeah, the majority has been positive.  I just got rubbed the wrong way by some of the complaints about the full size HDMI, the USB-C that outputs raw,  and the front button placement.  No one is forcing anyone to use any of those options.  You can ignore all of them and have a perfectly fine $1,000 4k raw recording camera.  If Blackmagic throws in an extra button for free and someone doesn't like it they can just ignore it.  Screaming vloggers shouldn't use this camera is ridiculous.

Calm down dude. We should "F&*% Off" .....Really?

I do think this camera is pretty much perfect and at a great price. I pre-ordered as soon as I could. I never kicked and screamed about anything and have never dismissed this camera as no good, just made a few observations. You, coming in all guns blazing is typical of forum warriors looking for a fight. Chill.

SDI could have been done at a similar price point and would have far better suited this camera than HDMI. There are monitors for as little as $250 with SDI and its a far more secure connection and pretty much every other Blackmagic product has SDI. While I understand the Video Assist is much lower in tech that the Pocket4k, it costs $500 and has 2xHDMI and 2xSDI ports. The sdi ports are not bank breaking items and im not asking for more ports, it just would have been nice to see SDI as BNC ports will last longer than HDMI ports especially on a hand held camera thats going to get picked up and put down lots. Is it a deal breaker? No! Am I hating on BM for using HDMI? No.

In regard to USB-C, I just made an observation that my phone's USB-C port has not fared well over the last 15 or so months that I have had the phone and that the cable now easily falls out. I mentioned this for the many here who are planning on using the port excusively as the media is cheaper. I was just giving people a heads up in the hope that they look after the port and think about how they use it. Sorry if for some reason this offends you!

I couldn't care less about the front button placement as I'm no Vlogger. 

I will say that I think Blackmagic have crippled this camera to possibly protect their larger, more expensive cameras. How so you might ask, the camera has EVERYTHING!

They have crippled it in the marketing of it! This is no Vlogger camera. Sure, you can Vlog with it as Peter McKinnon Vlogs with his 1DX but Canon wouldn't market their 1DX as a Vloggers camera. If you are a Vlogger, go buy a camera with a flip screen, that records to a small 8 bit codec and has continuous autofocus. Thats all you need....you don't need RAW!

Maybe BM thought that us pro's couldnt see past the marketing and spend more by getting another UMP as a B-Cam but this camera will get used on higher end work as a B/C Camera and maybe even an A Cam on mid level work provided it lives up to the specs and doesn't have sensor issues.

BM should be applauded for what they have done with the Pocket4K! Their marketing team however...........

 

[kye]

3 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

Don't confuse criticism with dismissal. I haven't seen anyone here saying the BMPv2 is not great. Especially for the price. It is hard not to advise anyone to get this camera.

But it is not ridiculous to claim that for handheld vlogging there are better solutions. Making such a big deal about the front facing button while there is little to no AF or a front facing screen is effort misplaced in my opinion. Of course you can use it as vlogging camera. Zone focus, use a lens with OIS and you can get excellent color as well. 

IIRC the fashion is to have shallow depth of field but the killer technique with Sony users (no front-facing screen there either!) is to extend your arm out with fingers pointed up and focus on them, as when holding the camera that's the same focus distance as hand to your face..  :D

1 hour ago, Tone1k said:

SDI could have been done at a similar price point and would have far better suited this camera than HDMI.

In reply to the above and also in general, we're in (yet another) situation where worlds collide.

World #1 is people who shoot RAW and see the camera as a tiny cinema camera.  In this sense SDI > HDMI and professional standards > consumer standards.

World #2 is people who want the 'best' ILC camera for under $2000.  In this sense, HDMI > SDI, consumer standards > professional standards, and front-facing buttons/screens/etc are nice features to have.

Neither world is wrong, it's just that before the DSLR revolution and YouTube these two worlds had never touched before.  Now they're in full collision mode.  Camera companies are trying to make products that appeal to both worlds and failing to connect, and both worlds look each other up and down then go back to whispering in separate groups like 10-year-olds in the school-yard.

In a decade we'll have worked out how big the market for online video is, how many people it can sustain at the various levels of quality, and what products make sense.

At the moment it's a mess, where the 'best vlogging camera' debate includes your phone, the RX100, the Canon M50, the Sony A7III, and the Pocket 2.  Any application that includes tools as varied as that lineup should indicate that we still haven't worked out what the hell is going on yet.

[Tone1k]

2 hours ago, kye said:

IIRC the fashion is to have shallow depth of field but the killer technique with Sony users (no front-facing screen there either!) is to extend your arm out with fingers pointed up and focus on them, as when holding the camera that's the same focus distance as hand to your face..  :D

In reply to the above and also in general, we're in (yet another) situation where worlds collide.

World #1 is people who shoot RAW and see the camera as a tiny cinema camera.  In this sense SDI > HDMI and professional standards > consumer standards.

World #2 is people who want the 'best' ILC camera for under $2000.  In this sense, HDMI > SDI, consumer standards > professional standards, and front-facing buttons/screens/etc are nice features to have.

Neither world is wrong, it's just that before the DSLR revolution and YouTube these two worlds had never touched before.  Now they're in full collision mode.  Camera companies are trying to make products that appeal to both worlds and failing to connect, and both worlds look each other up and down then go back to whispering in separate groups like 10-year-olds in the school-yard.

In a decade we'll have worked out how big the market for online video is, how many people it can sustain at the various levels of quality, and what products make sense.

At the moment it's a mess, where the 'best vlogging camera' debate includes your phone, the RX100, the Canon M50, the Sony A7III, and the Pocket 2.  Any application that includes tools as varied as that lineup should indicate that we still haven't worked out what the hell is going on yet.

Both worlds benefit from SDI at really no penalty.

[Nathan Gabriel]

3 minutes ago, Tone1k said:

Both worlds benefit from SDI at really no penalty.

Really? What about the factor of convince for consumers who are more likely to have HDMI cables than SDI? Think of anyone who is coming from Panasonic or Sony hybrids, they'll all be used to HDMI.

[jonpais]

hehe Used to HDMI? I’d gladly welcome SDI on all my cameras and monitors. Oh wait - both my monitors already have SDI... hmmm

[Tone1k]

29 minutes ago, Nathan Gabriel said:

Really? What about the factor of convince for consumers who are more likely to have HDMI cables than SDI? Think of anyone who is coming from Panasonic or Sony hybrids, they'll all be used to HDMI.

A short SDI cable is $20.

Panasonic and Sony users will all be used to using autofocus too but this camera doesn't have it (I'm not complaining Damphousse!) . Should BM have included AF because thats what other users are use to?

They'll all be use to a flip screen but......yeah you know the deal (Again, I'm not complaining about the lack of flip screen Damphousse! ;-) ). Without a tilting screen, this camera would benefit from an external monitor maybe more than a Sony or Panasonic.

Maybe BM should have included Canon, Sony and Nikon lens adaptors as that is what other users switching to this camera might be use to? 

Look, I know those suggestions are a little ridiculous but why not go for reliability and a superior feature over one that is severely flawed for the sake of what people may or may not be use to when it really doesn't cost much, if anything more?

 

Ultimately, HDMI is on consumer ILC cameras so people can film their kids, get home and plug the camera straight into the TV and watch the footage with the family. It's not there primarily for external monitoring. I Might be wrong, but I just can't see people doing that with this camera. You want to shoot filmic images, in RAW and with a flat Log prfile so you can edit and grade them. Who wants to share flat, dull looking images with their family? 

 

Anyway, progress would never be made if we always stuck with what people are use to.

[jonpais]

Would’ve been nice if they’d gone with Panasonic batteries too. (not complaining, Damphousse!)

[Tone1k]

Just now, jonpais said:

Would’ve been nice if they’d gone with Panasonic batteries too. (not complaining, Damphousse!)

Thats what I thought when the camera was first announced too.

[Anaconda_]

17 hours ago, kye said:

I can't confirm it but your assumption makes sense.

It also means trouble for what is fast enough to write to it!  RAW at 60p would be 540MB/s

Taking a look at the most expensive cards on B&H:
ARRI 512GB Extreme PRO CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 450MB/s
Angelbird 256GB AV Pro CF CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 400MB/s
Lexar 512GB Professional 3500x CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 445MB/s
ProGrade Digital 512GB CFast 2.0 Memory Card - 450MB/s

of course, sane people would just shoot compressed, but considering this thread is about specs... 

According to the sticker on the card, this one will just about manage, and is also the cheapest I can find... Whether it actually holds up is another story though: https://www.integralmemory.com/product/ultimapro-x2-cfast-2.0-memory-card

[Axel]

8 hours ago, Anaconda_ said:

With the little info there is to go on right now, all there is to do is talk about the various ports,  which cards to use and how useful that second record button will actually be.

After some experience with the actual camera, people will adjust their expectations. At first I thought, yes, I want to plug in the actual recording media (SSD) and start editing.

Really? Is that a good idea? Had this been a good idea if a fast 2TB SSD cost $10 and I didn't have to re-use it? I think not. All at once the whole flimsy-USB-epoxy-third-party-clamp discussion sounds a bit absurd.

And then, my NLE lets me start editing from any source right away anyway. For camera formatted SDHC cards it wisely forces me to make a background-copy. To a big HDD raid, a bottomless pit!

But the costs for 4k 60p RAW on CFast cards, and how many I needed for that!

But what about 4k 24p? What if I realize I don't need RAW over ProRes? BMs ProRes implementation is very good. Even Phillip Bloom found ProRes LT to be visually indistinguishable from ProResHQ in the classic Pocket. Almost 2 hours UHD @24p would fit on a 256 GB card, roughly an hour in ProResHQ (or ProRes Raw, should that make it into the P4k until fall). Do some vloggers need their faces in front of their carefully lit desktop still-life be recorded with more? There are twerps everywhere, and I guess once a camera offers THE BEST, it'd be infra dig to use any other option.

 

 

 

[jonpais]

Never edited directly from the original, not even when recording to the 1TB SSD on my Inferno. I make two backups and edit from one of them. And I use Backups for Final Cut Pro as added insurance.

[Anaconda_]

I think you'd only edit from the original if you're really time pressed. I've opened the file off the SSD from my Atomos to start grading an interview while it's copying to other drives, but would never do any actual editing or work on a full project that way.

Here's some more info from BM, the focusing idea sounds interesting.

[jonpais]

When people are wearing clothes... ?