Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

[jonpais]

6 minutes ago, Django said:

ok well i think the issues you may have had with the video you posted and perhaps others had way more to do with the grading quality than inherent cinematic or anti-cinematic properties of the camera. it also makes a big difference if you're shooting RAW.   let's not forget about lenses, those zeiss super speeds s16 are a great pairing but it's worth noting the full prime kit will cost you 5-10 times the price of the camera! but cine glass will take you a long way towards achieving.. cinematic footage. In the end what makes BMD cams special and different from the hybrids is ProRes/RAW, no OLP filter, no NR/Sharpening, Film/Log profile, color science. Basically the ingredients you'll find in much more expensive cinema cams. 

Agree 100%. 

[Don Kotlos]

While getting a cinematic image requires a variety of things, getting the camera settings correct is an important aspect of it. 

RAW (or a proper highbitrate codec) just takes fighting with the camera out of the way, and thus it is easier to get a cinematic image for example with the pocket. 

[maxmizer]

8 minutes ago, DBounce said:

But I think this is more to do with the person behind the camera than the camera. I would have little doubt they could have achieved similar results with any number of cameras. 

I think this statement is right, a good job but nothing special.

[TwoScoops]

46 minutes ago, DBounce said:

I'll agree it looks good. But I think this is more to do with the person behind the camera than the camera. I would have little doubt they could have achieved similar results with any number of cameras. 
 

That goes without saying. 

[cantsin]

5 hours ago, jonpais said:

What ever gave you the idea that all I look for in a video is sharpness? Did you even bother to read my post? Not only that, but in fact, the resolution of the video you shared, as near as I can tell with the slow vimeo I get here, is actually quite poor.

Whatever gave you the idea that I was responding to you at all? You relate comments to yourself that were not directed at you. I didn't even reply to you or quote you.

Let me say it loud and clear: Your behavior on this forum is increasingly aggressive and narcissistic. You should consider taking a break as a moderator.

- And yes, Vimeo uses adaptive streaming. If you have a poor connection, the video image will have poor resolution.

[John Brawley]

" Show me some cinematic looking footage shot with this camera"

-  shows cinematic footage shot with the camera

"They could make any camera look good"

Yeah we all know that the skills of those shooting are the most important factor in terms of end result. But you asked for cinematic footage from the camera ??

One of those skills though is also choosing a camera / lens package.

There have been Zeiss super 16 format Superspeeds as long as the 35mm format ones have existed.  They're great and actually pretty cheap.  Mostly in AB or PL m ount which can be easily adapted to MFT.

Unfortunately at this price there are many users that are new to filmmaking, or maybe see filmmaking as a hobby.  Blackmagic are exposing many users to a RAW or even high DR LOG workflow for the first time.  I see people slapping on LUTs designed for other cameras, not bothering to grade or even learn Resolve turning out half arsed results.

But.

If you're willing to step up YOUR game, willing to LEARN how to grade within this workflow, the camera will not hold you back.  The codec will not get in your way. 

It won't guarantee success either, you still have to be able to light, make nice frames and have a plan.  But you won't hit a ceiling with the camera very quickly in terms of image fidelity.

JB

 

 

 

[Tone1k]

1 hour ago, John Brawley said:

" Show me some cinematic looking footage shot with this camera"

-  shows cinematic footage shot with the camera

"They could make any camera look good"

Yeah we all know that the skills of those shooting are the most important factor in terms of end result. But you asked for cinematic footage from the camera ??

One of those skills though is also choosing a camera / lens package.

There have been Zeiss super 16 format Superspeeds as long as the 35mm format ones have existed.  They're great and actually pretty cheap.  Mostly in AB or PL m ount which can be easily adapted to MFT.

Unfortunately at this price there are many users that are new to filmmaking, or maybe see filmmaking as a hobby.  Blackmagic are exposing many users to a RAW or even high DR LOG workflow for the first time.  I see people slapping on LUTs designed for other cameras, not bothering to grade or even learn Resolve turning out half arsed results.

But.

If you're willing to step up YOUR game, willing to LEARN how to grade within this workflow, the camera will not hold you back.  The codec will not get in your way. 

It won't guarantee success either, you still have to be able to light, make nice frames and have a plan.  But you won't hit a ceiling with the camera very quickly in terms of image fidelity.

JB

 

 

 

Well said. 

Much of the look of a film is in the grade. Having a camera that gives you the most flexibility in post does help tremendously. So while yes, the DP has a huge influence on the look of the image, they may not have got the same results if shooting on a GH4 (as someone commented) as they may not have been able to push the image around as much in post. 

While a great camera can't make up for a poor DP, the camera does play a role in the look of a film. If a great DP would do just as well shooting VHS as was also stated, then surely the big production companies would have got wind of this and saved some money by hiring great DP's and handycams.....

[Kieran]

2 hours ago, cantsin said:

Let me say it loud and clear: Your behavior on this forum is increasingly aggressive and narcissistic. You should consider taking a break as a moderator.

Well put. As far as I know jonpais is not a moderator. He just behaves as though he is. And his attempts to dominate every thread are becoming tiresome. 

[kye]

Wow, this thread is getting hard to keep up with..  is everyone hammering away on their phones or is everyone retired or between client jobs or something??

9 hours ago, mercer said:

and be happy with FF Raw from my 5D3 and  S16 ProRes from a BMMCC

That's kind of like saying that Audi had too much of a hand in taming the latest Lamborghini and so you're going to be happy with your Ferrari and just pickup a second hand Lotus Elise to go to the shops and whatever...!!!!

7 hours ago, Django said:

In the end what makes BMD cams special and different from the hybrids is ProRes/RAW, no OLP filter, no NR/Sharpening, Film/Log profile, color science. Basically the ingredients you'll find in much more expensive cinema cams. 

Agreed.  

As a Resolve user I would also say that the fact they're coming from the same manufacturer is also a significant plus for me.  

In terms of this camera being so flexible (and therefore requiring all the work to be done in post) the fact that Resolve will be optimised to handle the footage well in terms of the formats, colour science, etc takes a significant amount of the risk out of it for me.  

If instead we were talking about ML, then Resolve has no camera RAW, no support for the colour science, etc.

(Sorry for the empty multi-quote Django - for some reason I can't remove the last quote from you..  )

[Savannah Miller]

Older blackmagic cameras with gen1 color science (BMCC, BMPCC, Micro, etc.) have much less sophisticated color science than the modern Blackmagic cameras.  They look good with nice dynamic range and good skintones, but when you want to match them to better cameras, it's a little bit harder. It probably has more of a baked-in look that people prefer.  The color science of the newer 4.6K Blackmagic camera is very nice and matches much better to higher-end camera systems.

I think mainstream is a good thing with this new Blackmagic camera as it will get their name out there even more to the general public.  If they sell a large enough volume of cameras they might even make other manufacturers reconsider the features they're putting in the cameras which will benefit everyone.

[maxmizer]

6 ore fa, Tone1k ha detto:

allora sicuramente le grandi compagnie di produzione avrebbero avuto il vento e risparmiato un po 'di soldi ingaggiando ottimi DP e handycam .....

Questa frase è sbagliata, perché: per le grandi case di produzione il costo della fotocamera e degli obiettivi è marginale rispetto al costo totale!

0,n

https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/films/955315/Avengers-Infinity-War-money-most-expensive-marvel-movie

 

[Anaconda_]

It doesn't look like BM will go for ProRes RAW, and feel their current implementation of ProRes is more than enough.

[jonpais]

14 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

It doesn't look like BM will go for ProRes RAW, and feel their current implementation of ProRes is more than enough.

That is an unusual answer. It sounds as though the BMD expert is saying there is no such thing as ProRes RAW. 

[John Brawley]

3 minutes ago, jonpais said:

That is an unusual answer. It sounds as though the BMD expert is saying there is no such thing as ProRes RAW. 

This is someone that's answering questions at BH Photo.  They aren't BMD.

JB

[jonpais]

2 minutes ago, John Brawley said:

This is someone that's answering questions at BH Photo.  They aren't BMD.

JB

Right - the BMD Expert.

[Anaconda_]

It's a verified Blackmagic rep. To me it sounds like they didnt understand the question, or got hung up on the wording.

Still though, does this camera need Prores RAW? Shooting BMs 'log' at proreshq will be more than enough for anything you need to do. And if you absolutely need raw, they have that I'm a better format than Prores anyway, right?

 

[jonpais]

I see many saying ProRes RAW has higher quality and takes up less storage space than ProRes HQ. I don’t know, I haven’t used it myself.

[Anaconda_]

That means it's compressed no? If you're worried about shooting RAW, you also want minimal compression, which BM have offered since day 1. So I don't see why they'd bother with Prores RAW. At this point, it's just a new buzzword .

[jonpais]

9 hours ago, John Brawley said:

" Show me some cinematic looking footage shot with this camera"

I did not ask anyone to show me cinematic footage from the camera, John.

I've already seen cinematic looking footage. I was merely asking if readers thought the video I shared looked cinematic. The video has gotten lots of love online. I gave my reasons why it doesn't look cinematic  to me at all: reasons which I still continue to stick by.

I did not say my opinion is the holy word of the almighty.

I asked in my post if I was mistaken. 

I accepted comments graciously.

Until someone accuses me of shooting underage girls and claims that I have a love affair with Panasonic - all of which are lies.

I never said the Pocket was not capable of delivering fine IQ.

If I misunderstood @cantsin, I apologize. I really respect his contributions to this forum. 

 

JP

 

18 minutes ago, Anaconda_ said:

That means it's compressed no? If you're worried about shooting RAW, you also want minimal compression, which BM have offered since day 1. So I don't see why they'd bother with Prores RAW. At this point, it's just a new buzzword .

Really? ProRes is used in 80% of productions. If  ProRes RAW can deliver better quality and use less storage space than ProRes HQ, that's a big deal. And it will soon be in most cinema cameras.

[Anaconda_]

Only in this case. I can see why users of cameras that don't have internal raw are interested.

But I don't see it offering much that BM already has, other than being able to print thise words on the side of the box. 

Like they said at NAB, they already have a great RAW workflow that uses open-source CinemaDNG. They have totally uncompressed and 2 differently compressed formats as well. Then Prores HQ 422 and LT. 

What will ProResRAW give them? A compressed version of something they already have. Cool.

I'm not saying it won't be nice to have the option, but I don't think it's a priority for them.

At the very least, they might hold onto if for 6 months and release a firmware update, renewing interest in the camera a year after it was announced.

 

EDIT: @John Brawley @jonpais and anyone else, can you take this bullshit somewhere else?