Firmware Update To Output RAW over HDMI? Is that even remotely possible???

[deezid]

Well, with working ProRes RAW on the GH5/s I wouldn't even consider a Pocket4K...

[Mokara]

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎10 at 1:13 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

So Atomos just announced the Ninja V and also announced a firmware update to their other recorders that will allow them to record ProRes Raw over HDMI.

The trouble is that apparently no DSLR / Mirrorless cameras are actually outputting RAW over HDMI (think the BMPCC4K WILL do that, but I have been known to be wrong in the past).

So, during an interview at NAB, ATOMOS CEO Jeromy Young said to petition your camera manufacturer to add RAW output over HDMI. He mentioned this would be great for the a7 or the 5D Mark IV, so I assume that HE was assuming that adding RAW output over HDMI to an existing camera via a frimware update is a thing.

Does that seem even remotely likely???

I mean, how likely is it to be technically feasible that Sony is going to add firmware to the original a7, or that Canon is going to add firmware to the 5d IV to output RAW?

And beside the technical difficulty, how likely is Mr. Sony or Mr. Canon to actually be influenced by whatever we ask for cameras that were released a few / several years ago???

Seems like buying lottery tickets would have a higher chance of paying off.

Unlikely to happen. HDMI on cameras outputs already debeyered video signal which is not RAW. So whatever comes out of HDMI is going to be processed already, the only thing different about it versus what goes onto an internal storage card is that it is not compressed. 

My guess is that outputting non-video through the HDMI port would require hardware changes as well, so a firmware update would not do it. 

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎10 at 5:52 PM, Mark Romero 2 said:

Ahh... I see my posts are clear as mud...

I actually meant that - for me, the end user - that buying lottery tickets would pay off better (for me) than trying to petition Sony / Canon / Nikon to add RAW over HDMI output from their older cameras. Sorry it didn't seem like that was what I was trying to say.

As for ATOMOS, since it seems like it was mostly a firmware thing, then yeah, they are probably going to do fine with it.

Well, they make a recorder, it will record whatever happens to come down the HDMI port, video or not, so it is no big deal for them. Completely different for the equipment SENDING the signal however, it is not just firmware that is involved, there is a hardware aspect and what Atomos would like to see happen in order to sell their product simply may not be feasible with current cameras. If there is no compelling reason for the camera manufacturers to do it, then they won't, since it adds manufacturing cost for little or no return.

[KnightsFan]

3 hours ago, Mokara said:

HDMI on cameras outputs already debeyered video signal which is not RAW. So whatever comes out of HDMI is going to be processed already, the only thing different about it versus what goes onto an internal storage card is that it is not compressed.

That's not entirely true. HDMI doesn't "know" what information it is carrying. You can send whatever data you want over HDMI, as long as you can encode it in a format it likes, and then decode it on the other end. Back a few years ago the Axiom project was putting a raw signal over HDMI. If I remember correctly, they were taking three Raw frames and sending them as the "red" "green" and "blue" channels. All you've got to do at the end is split the "channels" back into Raw frames.

[Lux Shots]

You can send all kinds of data over a HDMI 2.0 port. The standard already has support for Ethernet over the cable, so no reason they can't send RAW. The problem is which part of the hardware of the GH5S is doing the HDMI out. Is it the FPGA? The processor? A dedicated ASIC? 

[webrunner5]

2 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

You can send all kinds of data over a HDMI 2.0 port. The standard already has support for Ethernet over the cable, so no reason they can't send RAW. The problem is which part of the hardware of the GH5S is doing the HDMI out. Is it the FPGA? The processor? A dedicated ASIC? 

Out of likes. Well stated.

[DBounce]

3 hours ago, Lux Shots said:

You can send all kinds of data over a HDMI 2.0 port. The standard already has support for Ethernet over the cable, so no reason they can't send RAW. The problem is which part of the hardware of the GH5S is doing the HDMI out. Is it the FPGA? The processor? A dedicated ASIC? 

Honestly Idk. But I do know that Panasonic said it is possible. So if there is demand they might well enable it in a firmware update.

To my mind this would make the GH5S the best all rounder.

[Mokara]

19 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

That's not entirely true. HDMI doesn't "know" what information it is carrying. You can send whatever data you want over HDMI, as long as you can encode it in a format it likes, and then decode it on the other end. Back a few years ago the Axiom project was putting a raw signal over HDMI. If I remember correctly, they were taking three Raw frames and sending them as the "red" "green" and "blue" channels. All you've got to do at the end is split the "channels" back into Raw frames.

If you carried on reading to the bottom of the post, I said that

What comes out of a camera's HDMI is a processed video signal however. No doubt there may be specialist cameras which do something different, but there are hardware implications for that. Things like most Sony consumer cameras have a chip between the sensor and processor that does most of the preprocessing of the video signal in hardware. Probably most consumer cameras do something similar. That would include things like debeyering, conversion to 4:2:0, bit size reduction, maybe noise reduction and so on. Compression is done later by the processor, the HDMI feed runs out what the inbetween chip generates. Any sort of firmware adjustment would only be able to affect what the processor does with that processed signal and possibly the pre-processing operating parameters, so things like RAW coming down the HDMI would be out of the question (IMO). 

[Mark Romero 2]

17 hours ago, DBounce said:

Honestly Idk. But I do know that Panasonic said it is possible. So if there is demand they might well enable it in a firmware update.

To my mind this would make the GH5S the best all rounder.

Yeah, IF the GH5 CAN do that via firmware update... look out!!! Seems like it would be a true monster of a camera.

[KnightsFan]

@Mokara I read your entire post. It sounded like you were saying HDMI video by nature is debayered and processed. Even the second part of your post seemed to imply that Atomos was just sort of hoping that someone could send a Raw signal for them to record. Sorry if I misunderstood.

6 hours ago, Mokara said:

Things like most Sony consumer cameras have a chip between the sensor and processor that does most of the preprocessing of the video signal in hardware.

Raw photos aren't processed, so there is a way for the image to bypass the hardware processor. And besides, Atomos seems to think it can be done.

Edit: If Magic Lantern can write Raw to disk using software only, I have no doubt a firmware update to output Raw over HDMI is technically possible for many other camera models.

[Axel]

Panasonic has already confirmed that it s technically possible to output Raw via HDMI.

I think it's unlikely that the GH5S gets a FW update to enable that. As for other existing prosumer cams, I'd say it's highly unlikely. When pigs fly.

If there are no hardware changes necessary - such as soldering miniature cables or circuit boards - I start thinking about a *hack*. Please brick my smart mirrorless and make it a dumb RAW sensor with a lens mount!

But then there is this post. Is Atomos really doing the job right?

And there are Grant Pettys comments on ProRes Raw:

ProRes Raw is desired mainly for one reason: smaller file sizes. Without respecting the individual color science of the camera manufacturer (RAW isn't standardized), it will be inferior in quality. Who is responsible for this respect? The Apple codec? The device - Atomos - that encodes the video?

For my own part, I made up my mind already. If by September the BMPCC4K has ProRes Raw, that's fine. If I did the maths right, 4k PR RAW had about the same data rates as 1080 CDNG from the old Pocket. That meant low additional costs for cards and reasonable recording times. If BM says, no, we won't implement it, it's crap, I accept hat.

If some Gyro Gearloose offered to hack my Sony, I said, no thanks, I rather wait for a good implementation in new cameras (BM).

 

[anonim]

2 hours ago, Axel said:

Panasonic has already confirmed that it s technically possible to output Raw via HDMI.

I think it's unlikely that the GH5S gets a FW update to enable that.

 

 

It seems to me logical that it depends of selling rate/tempo of GH5s, and of estimation about proper moment for launching GH6. What I like the most, it is that inclusion of optional recording to some sort of RAW now looks inevitable - just 3-4 months ago it didn't look so on discussion here and elsewhere at forums.

What I dislike the most is that there's no any chance that GH5 get any firmware of this kind after 1.5-2 years of its existence - because that would greatly minimize reason for upgrading to GH6

[jonpais]

2 hours ago, Axel said:

Panasonic has already confirmed that it s technically possible to output Raw via HDMI.

Just who exactly confirmed that it's possible?  I haven't seen this anywhere...

[Axel]

24 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Just who exactly confirmed that it's possible?  I haven't seen this anywhere...

Quoting a slashCAM member quoting a dvxuser member quoting Mitch Gross, Panasonic product manager:
 

Quote

"So if you were to build a device with RAW output over HDMI, you would likely also have to build the device on the other end. And if you are going to do that, you are going to be spending a lot of time and money to make this system work, and it will all be a technical cheat and jumping through a lot of hoops in order to make it work with the limiting factors of the signal path that must be adhered to in order to remain HDMI-compliant ... so short answer is yes it is technicaly possible to send RAW over HDMI."

[jonpais]

10 minutes ago, Axel said:

Quoting a slashCAM member quoting a dvxuser member quoting Mitch Gross, Panasonic product manager:
 

But no mention of this being possible on either the GH5 or GH5s, is that correct? It sounds to me from this quote that not only is it extremely unlikely, but that it is not technically feasible.

[anonim]

5 minutes ago, jonpais said:

But no mention of this being possible on either the GH5 or GH5s, is that correct? It sounds to me from this quote that it is not technically feasible.

It sounds to me that it is possible, but it costs It is on the line with Panasonic CEO (?) appr: "Ask for firmware and we will take it into consideration." ... Of course, "ask" is euphemism for "if market force us to do it".

[jonpais]

And ‘if you were to build a device with RAW output over HDMI’ is a euphemism for ‘in your wildest dreams’. ? And even if it were possible, it would mean investing an extra $1,500.00 or more in an unwieldy 7” Shogun Inferno + storage and recording in the vastly inferior Prores RAW. ?

[Axel]

Too much new information to digest. I take Grant Pettys remark that PRR is useless if in the chain (camera with HDMI out, recorder with PRR encoder, software with decoder and CC tools) the metadata of the camera's color science isn't contained, saved, recognized and utilized. It's not probable that an illegal hack can do this. Panasonic must provide those metadata.

Then again, why would they? They could do Atomos a favor. Or they could do it for themselves, integrate PRR via firmware, data rates would allow it.

[anonim]

@jonpais I think also it is most likely It seems to me that these companies must have good predictions/insider news about future steps of their competitors - actually there are so little including variable that makes it extremely easy by base logic (even I as totally amateur predicted that BM will come with new raw mk43 toy and force Panasonic  to some-raw answer). So, Panasonic guys expected BM attack and left some space for answer - that's how I understand words of CEO. Unfortunately, BMPCC will ship maybe just at autumn -  quite in the time when Panasonic prosumer division will likely announce their new camera.

[Mokara]

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎13 at 5:57 PM, KnightsFan said:

@Mokara I read your entire post. It sounded like you were saying HDMI video by nature is debayered and processed. Even the second part of your post seemed to imply that Atomos was just sort of hoping that someone could send a Raw signal for them to record. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Raw photos aren't processed, so there is a way for the image to bypass the hardware processor. And besides, Atomos seems to think it can be done.

Edit: If Magic Lantern can write Raw to disk using software only, I have no doubt a firmware update to output Raw over HDMI is technically possible for many other camera models.

What can be done in Canon cameras is not necessarily what can be done in other cameras, since those older Canon models use simpler electronics running at much lower resolutions (which is the only reason why Magic Lantern could do what they did). Canon tends to take a crude approach to video as a result (in stills cameras at least), which is why they are always so far behind everyone else in that department.

Video is generally handled differently due to the bandwidth required. Stills data is directed to the buffer, where it is directly addressed by the processor. You can't do that with video however due to the bandwidth involved, so the preprocessing is done in hardware by the chip between the sensor and processor. Unless the chip is set up to do otherwise, that will not be user changeable. That is what makes 4K feasible in those sorts of cameras. You only have access to live feed, which is uncompressed but already processed data. Firmware can't change that. All it can do is alter the input parameters to the pre-processing engine, but that won't output raw.

In order to have RAW output, you need a camera that has the hardware to support it, otherwise you can't get it. The Sony consumer cameras have different hardware arrangements, and I suspect the same applies to the later Canon systems as well.

On ‎2018‎-‎04‎-‎14 at 2:30 AM, Axel said:

Quoting a slashCAM member quoting a dvxuser member quoting Mitch Gross, Panasonic product manager:
 

Lol....all he said that it was possible to send RAW over HDMI as a general observation, not that the camera itself can actually do it. He was explaining why they didn't have that feature in the camera. I would be very surprised if they had the hardware set up to do it.

[Axel]

7 hours ago, Mokara said:

Lol....all he said that it was possible to send RAW over HDMI as a general observation, not that the camera itself can actually do it. He was explaining why they didn't have that feature in the camera. I would be very surprised if they had the hardware set up to do it.

Well, I'm not an engineer, but from what I conclude when I combine this statement and J.Youngs "demand your camera manufacturer to unlock it!" (NAB Ninja V presentation), it doesn't seem to be a hardware condition. 

If it was something that could be achieved by a firmware extension and if that became publicly known ...

> it was hard for Panasonic (or others) to explain why they wouldn't do it. Could piss off the user base.

> the cameras would be hacked anyway.

> if, as some already speculate, Sony will be offering it in one of their new cameras (hard to keep track), it could be a wise move for Pana to have the FW update ready.

So IF it's not hardware-related, we will see it in due time.