BIG NEWS - Hands on with CONTINUOUS raw recording on Canon 5D Mark III

[Sean Cunningham]

I think that's understating the 5D's image. BMCC is still wonderful but it has a serious competitor here.

 

Some of the extra perceived detail in the BMCC's 2.5K raw comes from false detail. The 1080p on the 5D is much cleaner, and less noisy.

 

 

This isn't "perceived detail", or false detail.  This is blades of grass:

 

...that's unaltered 5D on top, BMCC on the bottom, 1:1 to each other @ 200%

 

 

...if it were "false" detail then further enhancing wouldn't further resolve maintained blade structure, here still at 1:1 to each other, 5D on top and enhanced BMCC on the bottom (mild de-moire + my LCE scheme).

 

...and here we have 5D on top and BMCC on the bottom scaled down to 1080.  The comparison would be even worse for the 5D if you were to go the other direction. 

[Danyyyel]

Don't wanna burst bubbles around here, but while all of this is great... only 40 seconds of recording time is not gonna cut it for narrative. Hence, I don't think this will be the Black Magic killer everyone is saying it will be. If BlackMagic Pocket/Production can shoot for several minutes, WITH audio, TV and Cinema shooters like myself will need to stick with it.

 

Still, a nice little treat for people who only shoot demo videos or music videos, I guess. 

I don't see how it could be viewed as a blackmagic killer. For 500/1000 more you are getting a 2k/4k raw and Prores camera. The DR should be about the same and global shutter. With the difference in cost of media, they should be very close in price and the camera is truly meant to shoot continuous video. Now if you really own a 5d3 or really want the full frame look or better low light, then it becomes a very attractive camera compared to the Blackmagic cinema cameras. Now if ML can make the raw work on the lower end camera in the $ 1000 range then it changes everything.

[Oscar M.]

Unless the ML team figure out how to write to a Ninja or Hyperdeck shuttle down the HDMI or implement file spanning to break free of the 4GB file limit this development although amazing is going to have little practical use with takes restricted to about 40 seconds (4MBx24/25fps=100MB/sec)

 

What you do not know is that this has been in the works for months. ML already has working compiles of the software that allows them to write to exFAT formatted cards. Many users have already implemented it.

 

Breaking the 4GB limit is fairly easy. The hard part was RAW. Now, it turns out that RAW may, in fact, be better for the camera than H.264 because incredibly, Digic uses less power to write RAW than it does to write H.264 - and it's all done without overheating the camera!

 

This is a testament to the fact that these cameras were meant to be "RAW war machines" and it implies that h.264 was basically the product of Canon's market segmentation strategy - Low-end users, ProSumer users and High-end users - different price points for different users. 

 

All-in-all, this is bound to change everything. Expect, by this time next year that RAW will be the film standard in the industry. And get this, I'm going to go even further and predict that this will also greatly impact the TV manufacturing industry. With 4K becoming standard, you can bet that TV manufacturers and broadcasters will follow suit in order to accomodate the new, better content- expect 4K TVs to start popping up everywhere . . .

 

Let's wait and see.

[Chrad]

4k TVs everywhere and broadcasters reacting accordingly? Broadcasts aren't even in 1080p yet.

[Oscar M.]

I don't see how it could be viewed as a blackmagic killer. For 500/1000 more you are getting a 2k/4k raw and Prores camera. The DR should be about the same and global shutter. With the difference in cost of media, they should be very close in price and the camera is truly meant to shoot continuous video. Now if you really own a 5d3 or really want the full frame look or better low light, then it becomes a very attractive camera compared to the Blackmagic cinema cameras. Now if ML can make the raw work on the lower end camera in the $ 1000 range then it changes everything.

 

That is not an "IF" but a "WHEN" . . .  just head over to the ML forums and you'll find out that they already have it working on the 6D and 650D, 5D2 coming and many others.

 

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5247.0

[Sean Cunningham]

And here's an example with the 5D footage enhanced as well...5D on top, BMCC below, 1:1 @ 200%

 

...even enhanced, there are far more areas that do not resolve out to see blades but remain clumps.  Because the structure and detail has to be there to be enhanced.  

[Oscar M.]

4k TVs everywhere and broadcasters reacting accordingly? Broadcasts aren't even in 1080p yet.

 

Where have you been? . . . 4K Tvs and projectors are already out there!

[Oscar M.]

I think Apple's next major device is going to be a 4K TV.

[Sean Cunningham]

4K in the home is rather stupid.

[yupmouthteeth]

Do you want to try a be a little more patronising?

 

Music videos can be beautiful, with just as much thought and effort going into them as a narrative. Some of the most talented people i know "only shoot music videos".

 

This, to me at least, is just as creative and interesting as a narrative... If not more so.... and could easily be put together with even 30 second takes.

 

Not meaning to come off as patronizing  Sorry if you got that impression. Music videos and demo pieces are awesome. I love them as much as the next guy. I just work in a different medium inside the business. If I tried to produce a TV show 40 seconds at a time I'd blow my brains out. There's just no way.

 

I'm simply stating for all the hype about this cutting into Black Magic's thunder, if you look at it from a realistic and practical use standpoint, while this technology is cool, there's no way it can hold a candle to other RAW cameras on the market. We can argue about image quality all day. If I can't get on set and use it continuously and comfortably, it's not worth the hassle. 

[yupmouthteeth]

4K in the home is rather stupid.

Heh... years ago they said the same thing about HD. :P

[sugartown]

 

This, to me at least, is just as creative and interesting as a narrative... If not more so.... and could easily be put together with even 30 second takes.

 

 

I don't think anyone is discounting Music Videos, or other short form applications, so much as being realistic about this cameras limitations.

I know people ran out and bought a camera that did 2 second clips, so this will be lost on some, but 40 seconds prohibits most shooting situations, including Narrative, most Documentary/EPK, Event, and yes, Music Videos!

 

You could not easily shoot that Sigur Ros video in 40 second shots.  Unless my math is off, the performance band shot alone would require over 15 starts and stops, because you do need coverage of the full 7 minute song. With a band standing there. That's for one take. Real shooting situations change everything.

 

This innovation essentially resuscitated the camera. It's a stunning image. If anything I worry that it lacks naturalism. But we're all figuring out what the camera can or can't do. I'm in purchase mode right now, and there are no clear choices for someone who can't buy a new camera for each project, or wait too long for new releases. I have mixed feelings on the Blackmagic, and sside from the recent Nikons (one of which only does good stills), I haven't seen a better image. Does that make it a practical camera in the field? That's the question!

[ScreensPro]

You would just edit over the 1 second or so missed by clicking the record button though.... not perfect, but i'd have zero concerns about timing my editing around those moments (on that specific video).

 

Or, just multicam it and stagger your recordings.

[Sean Cunningham]

Heh... years ago they said the same thing about HD. :P

 

Well then, smart guy, remind me when the breakthru in human evolution occurred that, not in a millennia, not in a century and not even in a generation but within the span of a product cycle uplifted the resolving power of our eyes so that the resolution in a 4K display of average television size isn't completely wasted as a result of physics and biomechanics.

 

PS> they had HD in the labs since the 1950s, before we went to the moon, before a majority of TV owners were "enjoying" color sets.  Technology improved in all that time but our eyes are the same.

[Oscar M.]

Well then, smart guy, remind me when the breakthru in human evolution occurred that, not in a millennia, not in a century and not even in a generation but within the span of a product cycle uplifted the resolving power of our eyes so that the resolution in a 4K display of average television size isn't completely wasted as a result of physics and biomechanics.

 

PS> they had HD in the labs since the 1950s, before we went to the moon, before a majority of TV owners were "enjoying" color sets.  Technology improved in all that time but our eyes are the same.

 

Basically, 1080p on screens larger than 50" is not ideal hence the need for higher resolution screens. A larger screen demands more pixels to display content without degradation. 4K will look amazing on small screens but in 1080 the larger the screen the worse the content looks.

 

A case in point: Most - if not all - Movie theaters use 4K projectors and while consumers are not going to have anything that size displayed in their homes, consumer screens continue to increase in size and the prices continue to drop. 

[sugartown]

You would just edit over the 1 second or so missed by clicking the record button though.... not perfect, but i'd have zero concerns about timing my editing around those moments (on that specific video).

 

Or, just multicam it and stagger your recordings.

 

I haven't seen anyone answer if the camera requires a cool down.

Coverage is everything. You might not have concerns, but your editor might.

[Sean Cunningham]

Dude, 4K projection does not equal 4K.  They're not projecting 4K DCPs exclusively or even as a majority.

 

It's not the size of the screen it's the size of the screen relative to viewing distance that determines optimal spatial resolution.  You're argument is invalid without taking into account viewer distance from the set.  A 50" set is on the threshold of making 1080P worthwhile at a viewing distance of 10' (but not decidedly better than 720P in this case)...you know, like on the wall, with a coffeetable in front of you, sitting on a couch.  10' is a luxury for some (certainly in Los Angeles or Tokyo) but at 10' a set would have to be way over 100" for 4K to be beneficial.

 

And this doesn't take into account we don't even have good 1080 transmission yet, because it's compressed all to hell. 

 

 

edit: here's an interesting aside, since this guy mentions 4K projection.  4K Sony projection makes, if you're not careful, Alexa and F65 footage look like absolute garbage.  I was totally convinced that Killer Joe was shot on some ENG camera after seeing it in 4K projection not too long ago.  I was so immediately distracted by how video it looked and I came to the conclusion, before just watching the film, that times were tough for William Friedkin and he just made the movie as best he could (good movie, looked horrible in the theater).  I got home only to find out it was an Alexa shoot.  Wow.

 

Similarly, and I still don't know where the producers spent $17M on the latest Evil Dead movie, but that thing was shot on the F65 and it looked like digital video, ironically projected by a 4K Sony projector.  Just terrible.  I bet it will look better on BD though.  Same for Killer Joe.

 

My point is, we haven't got the current stuff figured out and playing nice together or maintaining quality at all points.  We don't have anything close to unadulterated quality in the home at current standards or even in the theater at current standards.

[Chrad]

A case in point: Most - if not all - Movie theaters use 4K projectors

  
This is not true, and even if it were, almost none of the content being screened is 4K. Even Skyfall, which Sony used to push 4K projection, was sourced from a 2K master.

Where have you been? . . . 4K Tvs and projectors are already out there!

And 1080p TVs are hugely more widespread, but that doesn't change the fact that all TV broadcasts are 720p.

[Oscar M.]

I haven't seen anyone answer if the camera requires a cool down.

Coverage is everything. You might not have concerns, but your editor might.

 

The answer is NO.

 

Because of the way ML's module work, the Digic processor is actually doing less work by writing RAW than it does by writing H.264.

 

H.264 requires a lot of downsampling, up-sampling and compressing. RAW is a "straight file save from sensor to card" no processing in between. Therefore, expect the camera to actually consume less power when shooting RAW with no overheating issues! 

[Sean Cunningham]

I haven't seen anyone answer if the camera requires a cool down.

Coverage is everything. You might not have concerns, but your editor might.

 

Until this thing can record until the card fills up with a single press of the button it's got no place on a legitimate set.  I'm pretty confident they'll get it there though.  If they don't that answers for all time whether this development is any sort of threat to anything.