Recording Great Audio with cameras like the GH5

[Oliver Daniel]

Hello Audiophiles. 

I've really not payed attention to my own audio recording skills over the past few years. It's my weak area. 

I would usually have my sound guy cover this for me, but recently clients have been asking for testimonials and sound bites on set for "social media volume". 

I'm primarily shooting on the GH5 - and the audio gear I currently have is Rode NTG-1, Zoom H4n, Saramonic UW9 transmitter, receiver, lav mic and radio mic. 

So with the Saramonic Lav - it's pretty difficult.... "hisssssssssssss"... 

With the Rode and Zoom.... better but too quiet or too loud. In between, tearing my hair out. 

That Hugh Brownstone guy has really clear, crisp audio in his Vlog videos. That's what I want. 

TEACH ME.

p.s If you do, I'll tell everyone you are the best person since sliced bread! 

[fuzzynormal]

I use the Sennheiser ew 100-ENG G3-A Wireless Mic System plugged right into the Gh5; mostly with the supplied lav mic, but occasionally with a shotgun mic overhead. The overhead mic is nothing special. Just an Azden SGM 2x. Sounds decent for talking vocals. 

None of that gear is great or terrible, but I find it does the job.

I do apply a bit of compression and limiting on the audio track in post. 

[BTM_Pix]

8 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

So with the Saramonic Lav - it's pretty difficult.... "hisssssssssssss"... 

Just on this point, as I seem to remember you are a fan of the Crumplepop plug-ins, their AudioDenoise one does a very credible job on those Saramonics without too much hair pulling.

I know prevention is better than cure but might be worth a whirl if you can find a trial version.

[scotchtape]

If you are using a wireless lav, just get the Rode, Sony or Sennheiser stuff and go direct into cam. I use Sennheiser avx (lav or handheld) into a juicedlink box into gh5 unless it's a sit-down then I use the zoom h6.

 

Avx has annoying 18?Ms delay but if it's your only audio source it's unnoticeable. However it's auto gain whatever magic actually works great and it's kinda set it and forget it, I only adjust the gain once on the juiced link or h6 then that's it.

 

Admittedly in the sound comparisons I've heard, wired always sounds the best, so if you're ok with wires there's always that route.  Tons of affordable used lavs around. Rode lav and Sennheiser mke2 used are pretty affordavke.  Never used a tram before but those are also popular.

 

If you are working by yourself keep it simple

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, scotchtape said:

If you are using a wireless lav, just get the Rode, Sony or Sennheiser stuff and go direct into cam. I use Sennheiser avx (lav or handheld) into a juicedlink box into gh5 unless it's a sit-down then I use the zoom h6.

In my view the Sony UWP-D11 are the "best" right now from all the "no budget wireless" (i.e. not Zaxcom/AudioLtd/Wisycom/Lectrosonics/etc).

 

But G3/RodeLink are ok enough if you get a screaming good deal on them secondhand. 

If I was filming with a Panasonic GH5 by myself without a sound recordist, then I'd very seriously be considering a Panasonic DMW-XLR1 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1304877-REG/panasonic_dmw_xlr1_xlr_microphone_adapter.html

 

Other alternative is getting something like a Tascam DR60Dmk2 or MixPre3 etc to just wear on me while running with the GH5, to then later on sync up. (as for that H4n, just do the world a favor and chuck it in the bin)

[Oliver Daniel]

Thank you all for the advice. 

@IronFilm, I've had the Zoom H4n since I created my first DSLR kit. Still got it. Never use it. 

The difficulty I have is the conflicting advice about setting audio levels, like gain and volume....

"Never go over 0db... use -6db as your peak.... don't go below -12db....use -9db as your sweet spot" blah blah. 

So I do this and the audio will be a nice volume but "hissssssssss"....

Then I'll set a lower gain and the "hisssssssss" will be gone but the volume is very quiet. 

So overall, in general, what is the critical "must do" of audio recording settings for clear, simple recorded audio? 

p.s The audio i've recorded on an FS7 seems ok, but on the GH5 it's a piece of shit. What the beef am i doing wrong? 

[IronFilm]

Just now, Oliver Daniel said:

So I do this and the audio will be a nice volume but "hissssssssss"....

Because the H4n has the worst pre amps in the history of mankind (well ok, maybe not quite, but you get my gist).

[Oliver Daniel]

43 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

The difficulty I have is the conflicting advice about setting audio levels, like gain and volume....

"Never go over 0db... use -6db as your peak.... don't go below -12db....use -9db as your sweet spot" blah blah. 

So I do this and the audio will be a nice volume but "hissssssssss"....

Then I'll set a lower gain and the "hisssssssss" will be gone but the volume is very quiet. 

So overall, in general, what is the critical "must do" of audio recording settings for clear, simple recorded audio? 

p.s The audio i've recorded on an FS7 seems ok, but on the GH5 it's a piece of shit. What the beef am i doing wrong? 

@IronFilm, what's your take on this? (not recording with a Zoom btw)

On the premise you give me great sound capture advice, I will help you acquire superpowers beyond your wildest dreams. 

[IronFilm]

Well didn't I already reply? The H4n is awful. 

It is like choosing to film video with a Nikon D90 in 2018, wellllll sure you could make pretty images with it still.  But why bother with the hassle when a D5200/GH2/NEX-5N/Z Cam E1/etc are all so dirt cheap they're practically free, or a Panasonic G85 / GH5 / BMPCC4K etc don't really don't cost that much more. You'll get better results, with less hassle. 

But if you really must stick with the H4n, then make sure your signal coming in is strong enough you don't need to lean heavily on the H4n's pre amps at all.

[anonim]

On 4/11/2018 at 11:12 AM, Oliver Daniel said:

Hello Audiophiles. 

I've really not payed attention to my own audio recording skills over the past few years. It's my weak area. 

I would usually have my sound guy cover this for me, but recently clients have been asking for testimonials and sound bites on set for "social media volume". 

I'm primarily shooting on the GH5 - and the audio gear I currently have is Rode NTG-1, Zoom H4n, Saramonic UW9 transmitter, receiver, lav mic and radio mic. 

So with the Saramonic Lav - it's pretty difficult.... "hisssssssssssss"... 

With the Rode and Zoom.... better but too quiet or too loud. In between, tearing my hair out. 

That Hugh Brownstone guy has really clear, crisp audio in his Vlog videos. That's what I want. 

TEACH ME.

p.s If you do, I'll tell everyone you are the best person since sliced bread! 

I suppose that you well know that it is possible to properly monitoring audio from H4n within the camera, by using attenuator cable between recorder's line output and GH5 mic input? If the sound for you in this case is not enough good during monitoring, than there's a time for another option. I personally like good/excellent old ECM-44B, because of their unbeatable sturdiness...

[fuzzynormal]

Okay, this is what I do to get decent audio on substandard pre's.

Any legit audio guy is going to read this and get cold sweats, but here it goes regarding my use of Sen.G3 and a Gh5, with the Gh5 set at -12db for recording:

I just run my levels "hot."  You can go into the red and it'll stay clean...for the most part. It gives the quieter voice parts a nice thickness and gets the levels as far off the floor as possible.

--To the point where if the interview subject explodes with a big loud laugh or yell it actually clips the signal a little.  Knowing how far into the top you think you need to go is the tricky part.

Setting levels in the "risk" zone is okay by me. 

iZotope's audio Rx can compensate somewhat for clipping in post.

(post?!?)  

(yes, post)

Then, when editing, a modest application of compression helps smooth stuff out. Sometimes I'll even add a limiter if I'm in a hurry. 

When I'm more pedantic I'll ride the audio levels manually in the edit. Bumping -2 or +2 on a voice to keep the levels consistent. 

These are the trade offs I need to make in order to work with a small simple setup for run/gun.

It breaks the rules for sure... and, yeah, nothing is going to sound better than great pre's on a great mic.

But I'm working without that luxury, so I made up a different recipe to cope.   

There you have it. One anecdotal bit of nonsense from me. 

tl/dr answer: what IronFilm said.  "make sure your signal coming in is strong enough you don't need to lean heavily on...pre amps at all."

[IronFilm]

15 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Setting levels in the "risk" zone is okay by me. 

Yup, sometimes setting levels depends on your own person level of risk you're comfortable (do you mind blowing the peaks if the person shouts? Yeah, I'm willing to take the risk the person won't shout! It doesn't make sense for this shot) and also your knowledge (read: crystal ball gazing) of the shoot / person (is this someone who talks quieter or louder than normal?). 

Plus then there might be some other completely random other factors to consider, for instance last week I was working on a film shoot about a guy going to Mars and inside his helmet the sounds were much "louder" due to the confined space so I had to turn down the lav pack gain settings more than I would have normally for this actor. Just got to use your ears and react to what is happening around you.  Although in this case I already knew what was coming as a couple of years ago I'd watched the Matt Price interview with Mark Weingarten:

Hmmm... wasn't in that snippet! Thought it might be. Ah well, that tidbit of info I recalled on that shoot I learned from somewhere located inside this longer interview:

 

[IronFilm]

Ah HA! Found it! Was in this video:
 

 

Mid way through he starts talking about the helmets specifically, then a couple of minutes later he starts talking about the levels inside the helmet.

So yeah, that was just one example of the many little quirks you might deal with during a shoot which is different from the usual generic template approach you'll take on the other days and you need re-adjust for to come up with a new plan. 

[Oliver Daniel]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Well didn't I already reply? The H4n is awful. 

It is like choosing to film video with a Nikon D90 in 2018, wellllll sure you could make pretty images with it still.  But why bother with the hassle when a D5200/GH2/NEX-5N/Z Cam E1/etc are all so dirt cheap they're practically free, or a Panasonic G85 / GH5 / BMPCC4K etc don't really don't cost that much more. You'll get better results, with less hassle. 

But if you really must stick with the H4n, then make sure your signal coming in is strong enough you don't need to lean heavily on the H4n's pre amps at all.

Haha yes, you missed the bit where I said I don't use the Zoom H4n. I have one, But don't use it. It's old. And cheap. 

To give more clarity, I'm trying to get clean sound recording straight into the GH5, either via a Saramonic Transmittor with lav mic.... and/or a Rode NTG-1 straight into camera. Then setting up the levels properly for a basic interview scenario. I can do it fine with the FS7 - just the GH5 scenario that sucks. But I want to make it work as I've seen it done. 

Thanks @fuzzynormal for your unorthodox methods. 

[fuzzynormal]

FWIW, I've done more mission critical work with a dual mic setup running 2-channel split.  Last example that comes to mind was for a woman that was a soft talker but would cackle, very loudly, at her own jokes.  This was to be part of the video --so we knew we needed that compensation going into the shoot.  I often do similar with a lav plus shotgun overhead (as do most people).

21 minutes ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Saramonic Transmittor with lav mic

I don't know this kit, but the Sen.G3 has both transmitter and receiver level control.  Dialing in the mic level and signal level to send to a Gh5 is easy to get a thick source of audio.  What kind of level control is offered with the Saramonic gear?

[photographer-at-large]

On April 11, 2018 at 5:12 AM, Oliver Daniel said:

......That Hugh Brownstone guy has really clear, crisp audio in his Vlog videos. That's what I want.....