HockeyFan12 Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Hi, I noticed that the MixPre3 syncs timecode with the C100 via HDMI (which is amazing!) but what I want to know is if I were to run an external recorder in line with it, camera to external recorder to MixPre3, if that would still work. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted April 11, 2018 Share Posted April 11, 2018 Likely the only way you can find out is by trying it yourself! Or asking the manufacturer if they're passing timecode or not. As I'd imagine some external recorders would still be passing the record trigger through their HDMI output, but I bet there are some recorders which could end having stripped that out in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyFan12 Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 17 hours ago, IronFilm said: Likely the only way you can find out is by trying it yourself! Or asking the manufacturer if they're passing timecode or not. As I'd imagine some external recorders would still be passing the record trigger through their HDMI output, but I bet there are some recorders which could end having stripped that out in the process. Heh... it's even more complicated than that. Canon cameras trigger rec/stop on Atomos devices, which is what I'm using, but don't trigger rec/stop on Sound Device devices... I think? So I'd need to see if the Atomos device is recording timecode the same as the Canon device and then if it's outputting it, but rec/stop separately on the MixPre3. I might just have to buy one and return it if I can't get it working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Heh, makes me wonder if there is a market opportunity to take in ANY record trigger to then pass it out in ANY other record trigger. (for instance feed in Canon trigger, pass out Sony trigger) For recorders etc which don't support all the record triggers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyFan12 Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 12 hours ago, IronFilm said: Heh, makes me wonder if there is a market opportunity to take in ANY record trigger to then pass it out in ANY other record trigger. (for instance feed in Canon trigger, pass out Sony trigger) For recorders etc which don't support all the record triggers. There very well might be, but with changing product lines and firmware it might be a moving target... and an extra box to put a battery on... and another loose HDMI connection.... I wish more of these cameras had HDSDI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted April 14, 2018 Super Members Share Posted April 14, 2018 If you don't mind a bit of a project.....? You can start and stop the MixPre 3 with keyboard commands on its USB port (CTRL+R and CTRL+S) and the arduino boards like the Sparkfun Pro Micro have easy programmable functionality to emulate a keyboard. They can also be used to make LANC controls (with a minimal amount of breadboard action ). So you could make a very simple (and very small) box with a simple push button that would start/stop the C100 over LANC and also simultaneously start/stop the MixPre 3 over USB with the TC being passed via HDMI from the C100 to the Atomos to the MixPre 3. Or even a small HDMI splitter if the Atomos is stripping it. The little box would actually be powered by the LANC port of the C100 as well. Grimor and IronFilm 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyFan12 Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 On 4/14/2018 at 6:45 AM, BTM_Pix said: If you don't mind a bit of a project.....? You can start and stop the MixPre 3 with keyboard commands on its USB port (CTRL+R and CTRL+S) and the arduino boards like the Sparkfun Pro Micro have easy programmable functionality to emulate a keyboard. They can also be used to make LANC controls (with a minimal amount of breadboard action ). So you could make a very simple (and very small) box with a simple push button that would start/stop the C100 over LANC and also simultaneously start/stop the MixPre 3 over USB with the TC being passed via HDMI from the C100 to the Atomos to the MixPre 3. Or even a small HDMI splitter if the Atomos is stripping it. The little box would actually be powered by the LANC port of the C100 as well. Way over my head... but that's an interesting idea. Got word back from Atomos that while the Blade does pass Timecode, for some reason The MixPre3 can't read it. Weird, but plausible given all the propriety stuff everyone seems to be up to. Are the F4 and MixPre3 really in another league from a 60D Mk II from Tascam or something? Does the F4 have analogue limiters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted April 16, 2018 Share Posted April 16, 2018 It is not about if something has "analogue" limiters or not (neither Sonosax or Zaxcom use analogue limiters, as digital is the future). Although yes, F4 for instance has better pre amps than a Tascam DR60Dmk2 (which already has the best pre amps of anything in the sub US$500 category). But it it is also about all the other features and functionality you get, which is at the level of a recorder which costs many times the F4. And was previously completely unachievable at anywhere near that price point. Which is what makes it so revolutionary! Like the HDSLR Revolution was for cameras, but for sound. (Bit under appreciated though... as usual for the sound department) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyFan12 Posted April 16, 2018 Author Share Posted April 16, 2018 8 hours ago, IronFilm said: It is not about if something has "analogue" limiters or not (neither Sonosax or Zaxcom use analogue limiters, as digital is the future). Although yes, F4 for instance has better pre amps than a Tascam DR60Dmk2 (which already has the best pre amps of anything in the sub US$500 category). But it it is also about all the other features and functionality you get, which is at the level of a recorder which costs many times the F4. And was previously completely unachievable at anywhere near that price point. Which is what makes it so revolutionary! Like the HDSLR Revolution was for cameras, but for sound. (Bit under appreciated though... as usual for the sound department) Haha yes sound department always gets the short end of the stick. It's the only thing I don't know how to do at all. I'll make my question much more specific: How much better are the pre-amps on the F4 or MixPre3 than on the DR60Dmk2? And does the DR60Dmk2 offer pots that are useful for mixing, or would you need a MixPre-D to make it useful for that? It looks like timecode sync isn't an option for me for reasons this thread makes painfully clear. I was originally going to look into a MixPre3 to get much better sound quality and timecode sync compared with the DR60Dmk2, which I already own but was planning to sell. But if the sound quality isn't hugely different (I consider the difference between the h4n and 702, for instance, to be completely night and day; not only is the sound much fuller on the 702, the noise floor is massively superior, and the h4n has a weird intermittent high frequency hiss–it's just pure garbage) I could just spend the money on a rental. There are VERY few jobs for which I'd need this anyway. I don't consider the h4n to have good enough sound even for a YouTube video. If the 60D Mk 2 does... and you can mix using the pots... well... I'll just do what I should do an call in the pros. But for an indie set, paying $1200/day for sound department and another $1000/day for kit rental is not an option unfortunately. I'm trying to split the difference between dirt cheap and pro. You're so right about the sound revolution going ignored, but part of the reason why is I don't think ease of use has changed much and the main cost will always be labor. An F5 or C300 is stupid easy to use for a lone ranger compared with a 416 or even an F35 or Alexa, which require real crews. I'd argue that the revolution in sound hasn't happened yet where the gear does that much work for you. You still need high end lavs to get anywhere and to worry about phasing etc. and know how to mix, know which mic to use and how to place it, etc. If someone could use the Wifi functionality or blue tooth or something on iPhones, then hook lavs up to those, and sync that automatically with video, then you're getting somewhere... But even with the sound revolution, you still need a crew! There's no DPAF for sound. This might be good for you if you work in sound department, but it's bad for me! That said, I can't find a place that even rents the MixPre3, which is pretty sad... I take it I should just keep the 60D Mk 2 lol. Maybe add a MixPreD to the equation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 5 hours ago, HockeyFan12 said: But if the sound quality isn't hugely different (I consider the difference between the h4n and 702, for instance, to be completely night and day; not only is the sound much fuller on the 702, the noise floor is massively superior, and the h4n has a weird intermittent high frequency hiss–it's just pure garbage) You say you own a DR60Dmk2, doesn't the difference between that and an H4n already feel like night and day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyFan12 Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share Posted April 17, 2018 3 hours ago, IronFilm said: You say you own a DR60Dmk2, doesn't the difference between that and an H4n already feel like night and day. I do own one! The problem is... I don't own an H4N so I haven't had the chance to compare. To my ear, the preamps on the DR60D sound similar to my C100's. Which I remember being better than the H4N's (by a lot) but worse than the 702. I guess you answered my question... But I am curious: Do you think the pots (or volume knobs or whatever they're called) on the Tascam are usable for mixing dialogue? And do you think the difference between the DR60D and F4 etc. is small enough that most consumers (web video, festival-oriented films) wouldn't care? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 If you're just doing unpaid web videos / amateur film festivals / etc then yes indeed the audio quality of the Tascam DR60Dmk2 (used correctly of course, but even a 688 would sound bad in the wrong hands!) is quite good enough. If a person is at the semi pro level specialising in sound then the F4 (or F8) is a smart buy, or if they just feel like a "luxury" item to enjoy. (after all lots of amateurs buy low end "cinema cameras" such as say a C100 or FS5, so why not enjoy also say a F4/MixPre10T/633? Nothing wrong with that at all!) Of course if your primary income is sound then just settle with one of the industry standards. So just think about where you are, and what are your future goals, then buy appropriately to match that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted April 17, 2018 Super Members Share Posted April 17, 2018 And if you want to sync start recording on that DR60mkii with the C100 then naturally I have a cunning plan for that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 How?! Very fast reactions via a genetic mutation from an X-ray spider? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted April 17, 2018 Super Members Share Posted April 17, 2018 The remote port protocol for the Tascam has been discovered so a small arduino, a button and a couple of 2.5mm cables can send the start/stop commands simultaneously in the LANC format to the camera and the Tascam format to the recorder. Obviously, this would also work with any other LANC camera so BMPCC etc would be equally applicable beneficiaries Oh...and for LANC also read WiFi so the same stunt could be pulled for the usual suspects from Panasonic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyFan12 Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share Posted April 17, 2018 4 hours ago, IronFilm said: If you're just doing unpaid web videos / amateur film festivals / etc then yes indeed the audio quality of the Tascam DR60Dmk2 (used correctly of course, but even a 688 would sound bad in the wrong hands!) is quite good enough. If a person is at the semi pro level specialising in sound then the F4 (or F8) is a smart buy, or if they just feel like a "luxury" item to enjoy. (after all lots of amateurs buy low end "cinema cameras" such as say a C100 or FS5, so why not enjoy also say a F4/MixPre10T/633? Nothing wrong with that at all!) Of course if your primary income is sound then just settle with one of the industry standards. So just think about where you are, and what are your future goals, then buy appropriately to match that. Aren't all festivals amateur by definition? I guess that answers my question, though. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted April 17, 2018 Share Posted April 17, 2018 4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: The remote port protocol for the Tascam has been discovered so a small arduino, a button and a couple of 2.5mm cables can send the start/stop commands simultaneously in the LANC format to the camera and the Tascam format to the recorder. Link? As a quick google and I only found this (which isn't exactly relevant): https://github.com/mungewell/openDR-Remote 1 hour ago, HockeyFan12 said: Aren't all festivals amateur by definition? Guess my point is there are a very wide range of entries to festivals, so it could mean anything without a qualifier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted April 17, 2018 Super Members Share Posted April 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, IronFilm said: Link? As a quick google and I only found this (which isn't exactly relevant): https://github.com/mungewell/openDR-Remote https://github.com/abbrev/tascam-rc-10-remote Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HockeyFan12 Posted April 17, 2018 Author Share Posted April 17, 2018 3 hours ago, IronFilm said: Guess my point is there are a very wide range of entries to festivals, so it could mean anything without a qualifier That's fair. While I have worked on a few films that may have been "guaranteed" entry into fests due to networking, for me I couldn't say! It's whomever accepts it, if anyone. But there are still baseline standards at worthwhile festivals and it's much easier to miss those due to bad sound than do to image quality imo. Same for YouTube, bad sound will be a problem. An 80D might have aliasing, but it won't be! But the flip side is also exactly my point, I won't be making money directly on any of this, so paying for a proper crew isn't on the table either. :/ Anyhow, I'll save the money on renting a MixPre3 if the right project demands it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 5 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: https://github.com/abbrev/tascam-rc-10-remote Nifty! I hadn't heard of this before for the DR60D and some other Tascams BTM_Pix 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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