RED delays in 2018: "Late and better is better than just late."

[IronFilm]

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?167012-Update-4-12-2018

Heh, RED has been pretty bad in the past with delays (or straight up cancelling projects), but even still now in 2018 they don't meet shipping targets. 

I think we can give BMD a bit of slack! Even though I'm fairly optimistic they'll meet their November target. 

[Snowfun]

Yes, the Hydrogen is delayed but they have (apparently) improved the hardware and software in the interim (doing away with the need for an additional >$700 module for the 3d stuff). Later in that thread Jannard admits to a certain naivety regarding the carrier certification process so there is some transparency in the delay.

For my own 2018 preorders it’s a two horse race - Hydrogen vs Pocket... 

 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, Snowfun said:

For my own 2018 preorders it’s a two horse race - Hydrogen vs Pocket... 

Three horse race:

Hydrogen vs Pocket 4K vs Z Cam E2

No wait, yes it is a two horse race:

Pocket 4K vs Z Cam E2

As once you add the interchangeable lens mount module for Hydrogen then I am 100% sure it will be in a completely different pricing territory to either the Pocket or the E2 (more like Terra 4K price, if not even much more!). 

[BTM_Pix]

I love the reactions on Reduser to bad news like that.

They welcome Jim's announcements of delays with the same exultation as if he was the bank manager extending the date you have to pay a loan back.

It always reminds me of that scene in Life Of Brian where Brian screams at everyone "OK, I am the messiah...now f*** off" to which he gets the response "How shall we f*** off Oh Lord?"

 

 

[IronFilm]

The boot licking in that other forum is other worldly. 

 

[BTM_Pix]

6 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

The boot licking in that other forum is other worldly. 

It truly fascinates me to be honest.

Good luck to them though.

Oh to have that serenity to accept disappointments.

Everything I ever bought from RED was arrived late and undercooked. Like the worst chicken restaurant in town.

 

[IronFilm]

5 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

It truly fascinates me to be honest.

I think the extreme hatred/skepticism/negativity towards RED in the early days caused them to close ranks, and those effects still linger in their culture to today. 

[Snowfun]

Don’t get me worried! I preordered a Hydrogen...

But, I agree, the worship on those fora is fascinating - I could be wrong but I’ve always assumed that hardcore professional RED users don’t bother with reduser as they'll have direct access to those who count. It’s the aspirational types desperate to impress who lead the kneeling rituals. I still think that a photo of using the Hydrogen running the BM app to control the Pocket 4K will go down a storm on That site...

[BTM_Pix]

1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

I think the extreme hatred/skepticism/negativity towards RED in the early days caused them to close ranks, and those effects still linger in their culture to today. 

Yeah, their thread about the new BMPCC4K was quite interesting

 

9 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

Don’t get me worried! I preordered a Hydrogen...

But, I agree, the worship on those fora is fascinating - I could be wrong but I’ve always assumed that hardcore professional RED users don’t bother with reduser as they'll have direct access to those who count. It’s the aspirational types desperate to impress who lead the kneeling rituals. I still think that a photo of using the Hydrogen running the BM app to control the Pocket 4K will go down a storm on That site...

I'd love to be at that Hydrogen launch event to see how the forum's collective persona translates into the real world when they actually meet Brian, erm, I mean Jim.

I'd especially be interested in knowing what he thinks of it.

I mean, he must know its a bit 'unusual' for grown adults to react to what are often negative statements with such fervour?

Even Steve Jobs would be saying "OK, lets tone this down a notch lads"

[mercer]

14 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

But, I agree, the worship on those fora is fascinating - I could be wrong but I’ve always assumed that hardcore professional RED users don’t bother with reduser as they'll have direct access to those who count. It’s the aspirational types desperate to impress who lead the kneeling rituals.

I have theorized this for a while now, about most forums. And it wasn’t until I started browsing Instagram, that I became certain of it.

Obviously not everybody on every forum is guilty of this but fanboyism is every where. Even this forum has a healthy dose of it, as noticed in many topics lately. I, myself, am guilty of it on occasion.

But if you look at Instagram and see the quality of work being done on Canon DSLRs and you begin to question everything you read on any forum. 

With that being said, the Hydrogen is one of the most interesting and exciting announcements of the past 3 years and if they can keep the price at a modest level and give us the ability to change lenses for only a fraction more, I could easily see myself going that route over the Pocket 2.

Maybe the P2 will force their hand a little... because let’s be honest here... are people really going to buy this camera for its phone coverage or its holograms?

[BTM_Pix]

2 minutes ago, mercer said:

But if you look at Instagram and see the quality of work being done on Canon DSLRs and you begin to question everything you read on any forum. 

The same is true with lenses that you see not getting a great deal of love - or even outright contempt - and then you look at the Flickr pool for it and there is page upon page of great images shot with it.

6 minutes ago, mercer said:

Let’s be honest here... are people really going to buy this camera for its phone coverage or its holograms?

On that particular thread - amongst the pom pom waving about the delay - someone asked if anyone knew how he could edit his videos that he shot with it.

I could hear the sound of the tumbleweed bouncing along the tarmac even from this side of the Atlantic 

I am intrigued by the Hydrogen but I'm a bit like a dog chasing a car in that I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with it if I caught it.

[IronFilm]

3 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I am intrigued by the Hydrogen but I'm a bit like a dog chasing a car in that I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with it if I caught it.

Nailed it. 

If a person wants to experiment with novel new technology then go buy a 360VR camera instead. 

[mercer]

39 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Nailed it. 

If a person wants to experiment with novel new technology then go buy a 360VR camera instead. 

I don’t know, I think this is people’s problem with new technology... everybody is excited about the crazy new thing the gadget does but forgets the refined jewel buried in the menus.

I saw this with the GH5... everybody went nuts for 10bit 4K... when the 10bit, 200mbps all-i, up to 60p is the jewel in that camera.

In the P2, everybody is going crazy for the 4K, but the jewel will be the 10bit ProRes up to 120fps recorded to SD cards (hopefully).

And in the Hydrogen, the hologram concept is so cool... it becomes our only hope... but the straight up video will be the star at that price point... especially if they have a Log Profile or RedFilm or whatever Reds do. Hell, even with the built in lens, this phone/camera could be groundbreaking for run and gun filmmaking. What Soderberg did with the iPhone should be nothing compared to what could be done with the Hydrogen... maybe.

54 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

The same is true with lenses that you see not getting a great deal of love - or even outright contempt - and then you look at the Flickr pool for it and there is page upon page of great images shot with it.

On that particular thread - amongst the pom pom waving about the delay - someone asked if anyone knew how he could edit his videos that he shot with it.

I could hear the sound of the tumbleweed bouncing along the tarmac even from this side of the Atlantic 

I am intrigued by the Hydrogen but I'm a bit like a dog chasing a car in that I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with it if I caught it.

I agree about lenses. I have had some stinkers in my life and I’ve had some that were supposed to be stinkers but actually had some pretty good character with motion... for instance, the Nikkor ai-s 35-70mm f/3.3-4.5 is regularly mentioned as one of Nikon’s worst lenses ever made. So of course, I bought one new for $50 and all in all it’s not that bad. It has good color rendition, with nice character, plus it’s tiny for a medium zoom.

Hmm, I’ll have to dig it out and see how it fares on FF in ML Raw. It could be a cool two lens set up with my Nikon 50mm Series E.

[mkabi]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

The boot licking in that other forum is other worldly. 

There is an actual reason for that.... and I'm not making excuses... but once you know... I'm sure all of us will be kissing some major ass over there too. Not that I am.... I'm done with RED and that forum for now. May be in the future.... and even then I would rather rent than own.

A couple of years ago... 2015/2016... the preorders for the Raven & Scarlet-W was not only backordered, but was going out of hand. Basically, what had happened was that there was way too many Raven orders for them to handle so they introduced the Scarlet-W with the incentive of those who switch from the Raven will get in line first, even if you were the first to preorder the Scarlet-W and wasn't even interested in the Raven. In other words, if you ordered the Scarlet-W straight, and didn't give a shit about Raven, I would be able to bud-in line before you if I switched my Raven order to a Scarlet-W. You can see why.... people were getting mad... on top of that.... people were getting impatient.... I think it was already 6 months in.... from preorder to delivery date. People were getting their Ravens, but slower than the Scarlet-W orders, because they prioritized Scarlet-W and Weapon orders..... I think they had 3 assembly lines and they switched every 2 weeks or month to speed up one process over the other or something....

So, complaints on the main forum started pouring in... slowly at first, then it started becoming a mad frenzy.

There was may be 1 Red rep that was trying to provide answers and help calm the complainers, along with may be 5 or 6 people that was defending the brand and being loyal....

Within 2 to 3 weeks, Jarred Land came in and rewarded the 5 or 6 people with Weapon upgrades for free. All of a sudden, whether you were a Raven preorder or Scarlet-W preorder - those 5 to 6 people got Weapons instead. He became the Oprah of Cinema Cameras and people just shut up and started kissing ass.

 

[mercer]

Man that is a pretty brilliant move. It reminds me of when I was in 3rd grade and my teacher complained about how much of a mess our cubbies were. Myself and one other kid went and cleaned up our stuff but the other kids just looked down... needless to say, I didn’t have to do homework that night. So yeah, the weapon upgrade must’ve felt exactly like that...

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

It could be a cool two lens set up with my Nikon 50mm Series E.

That was the first Nikon lens I ever owned as it was the kit lens with my EM when I was but a pup!

If you come across the 75-150mm Series E it is also a bargain. I regularly see them on eBay for less than £40.

The 100mm f2.8 Series E as well is worth a look for what they go for as well. Really compact little thing.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, mkabi said:

There was may be 1 Red rep that was trying to provide answers and help calm the complainers, along with may be 5 or 6 people that was defending the brand and being loyal....

Within 2 to 3 weeks, Jarred Land came in and rewarded the 5 or 6 people with Weapon upgrades for free. All of a sudden, whether you were a Raven preorder or Scarlet-W preorder - those 5 to 6 people got Weapons instead. He became the Oprah of Cinema Cameras and people just shut up and started kissing ass.

WTF!!

[mkabi]

31 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

WTF!!

Exactly!

I wasn't complaining, but I wasn't exactly defending either... I participated in the discussions as a third person observer...

And, all of a sudden... He comes in a says.... You get a weapon... You get a weapon.... You get a weapon..... Everyone that was on our side gets a weapon!!!!! (A la Oprah Winfrey-esque)

I was like fuckedity fuckfuck fuck! Why didn't I say shit? I could've got a weapon... Play around with it for 6 months.... Sold it and buy a Scarlet-W and still made a profit!

[Trek of Joy]

Only got about 10 pages into that thread, the brown nosing is otherworldly. People are talking about flying to LA for a phone demo event. For a phone?!?! Some are saying they're buying into Hydrogen early because of the discounts people got for upgrades to the original One camera, so they want to be the first to get benefits down the line. Doesn't anyone want to see the actual system before buying a bunch of ideas?

And the gushing about how grateful they are for the delay because a supposed add-on is now integrated into the hardware. Are there any skeptics? Like maybe all the 4v crap didn't actually work with an attachment? This whole "we're getting a Gen2 phone at Gen1" is silly. Wonder what they'll say with the next delay?

Then there's the group talking about how this is going to be their all-in-one stills/video system. SMH. Without seeing anything, no functioning hardware, no images, just a bunch of vaporware - many of which likely won't come to fruition over the next couple years when said phone will be obsolete or not selling in large enough numbers to be profitable. Its using standard phone camera modules, so its initial image won't be any better than any current high end phone. Everything beyond that will require pricey add-ons. 

I applaud them for trying to create a phone based ecosystem with greater capabilities - at least someone is thinking beyond the phone. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out though, selling small volume/high margin goods is vastly different from entering a low margin/crowded market against bigger players with much deeper pockets. Getting carrier certification is not getting said carriers to push your products. Phones are not sunglasses.

All of this feels like something that will result in another one of Jim's "just being transparent" posts as he announces he's selling the Hydrogen intellectual property to a phone larger manufacturer for $2.5 billion dollars.

Chris

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, mkabi said:

Exactly!

I wasn't complaining, but I wasn't exactly defending either... I participated in the discussions as a third person observer...

And, all of a sudden... He comes in a says.... You get a weapon... You get a weapon.... You get a weapon..... Everyone that was on our side gets a weapon!!!!! (A la Oprah Winfrey-esque)

I was like fuckedity fuckfuck fuck! Why didn't I say shit? I could've got a weapon... Play around with it for 6 months.... Sold it and buy a Scarlet-W and still made a profit!

You had to at least have a Raven pre order however ?

6 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

 This whole "we're getting a Gen2 phone at Gen1" is silly. Wonder what they'll say with the next delay?

  "we're getting a Gen3 phone at Gen1" 

 

6 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Then there's the group talking about how this is going to be their all-in-one stills/video system. SMH. Without seeing anything, no functioning hardware, no images, just a bunch of vaporware - many of which likely won't come to fruition over the next couple years when said phone will be obsolete or not selling in large enough numbers to be profitable. Its using standard phone camera modules, so its initial image won't be any better than any current high end phone. Everything beyond that will require pricey add-ons. 

 

Makes all the furious speculation and predictions about how good the BMPCC4K will be seem like a drop in an ocean. 

 

6 hours ago, Trek of Joy said:

Jim's "just being transparent" posts 

Hahaha