The M43 Cinema - 3 Way Battle

[Anaconda_]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1304877-REG/panasonic_dmw_xlr1_xlr_microphone_adapter.html
The Panasonic DMW-XLR1 is a specific pro in favor of just the GH5.

But if you start including optional extras in this list, then it's going to be endless. In that case the articulating screen isn't a plus just for the GH5S as the others can just use a monitor to achieve the same end.

[DBounce]

Only one of the three is a mirrorless hybrid. The Z-Cam is a modular camera like the Kinefinity and the BMPCC 4K is something else altogether. You really need to hold it to appreciate this point.

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Emanuel said:

And what about the sensor there?

MFT sized. 

1 hour ago, Anaconda_ said:

But if you start including optional extras in this list, then it's going to be endless. In that case the articulating screen isn't a plus just for the GH5S as the others can just use a monitor to achieve the same end.

None of the others have the tight integration the DMW-XLR1 has. 

[DBounce]

3 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

MFT sized. 

None of the others have the tight integration the DMW-XLR1 has. 

Agreed, a third party external monitor is not the same as a manufacturer accessory designed for the camera. In any case, having built in XLRs is great, but I will be convinced when I actually hear what it sounds like.

I am at a loss as to why without any actual footage from either of the other two models everyone seems so quick to throw Panasonic under the bus. Is there another manufacturer that listens to their customers more than Panasonic? I think you would be hard pressed to find one.

From the back screen I was not blown away by the BMPCC. But I will reserve judgement until I see real footage.
Since they totally abandoned the idea of "pocket", I wish they had designed it to be something more modern and ergonomic. This Giant Point and Shoot (GPS) format looks awful, and will not rig or mount to a gimbal as readily as a more standard design. It also does not look very stealthy. I'm certain it will get more question than a hybrid design.
The Z-cam had no footage at all, and no screen. It was just a box on a tripod. They listed specs but that's it. Without substance specs are meaningless.

I liked what I saw from Kinefinity, and most of you know I was one of it's biggest critics. Still they need to fix the lag. I also recently heard about the fixed pattern noise on their 4k model. That also needs to be made right. But the Mavo looked pretty nice. 

This sensor is proving a real hit with filmakers. Not sure why people keep bringing up the GH5... it uses a different sensor. The GH5S is another animal. 

As for the cooling thing on the BMPCC4k, both the GH5S and Z-Cam forego the fan, so I am skeptical as to why the BMPCC4k needs this. Yes you could argue noise, but it might be due to inefficiency also. I'm would have liked to have seen a slot big enough for an SSD, and an optional battery extension. Flippy screen would have been fantastic.

[IronFilm]

1 minute ago, DBounce said:

I am at a loss as to why without any actual footage from either of the other two models everyone seems so quick to throw Panasonic under the bus. Is there another manufacturer that listens to their customers more than Panasonic? I think you would be hard pressed to find one.

Blackmagic Design probably listens better to their users..... ? ;-)

But yes, I agree, the GH5/GH5S still hold a strong position in the market themselves. Even with the release of the BMPCC4K, whenever it starts shipping. 

2 minutes ago, DBounce said:

As for the cooling thing on the BMPCC4k, both the GH5S and Z-Cam forego the fan, so I am skeptical as to why the BMPCC4k needs this. Yes you could argue noise, but it might be due to inefficiency also.

Be interesting to see high ISO results, and if BMPCC4K has a performance edge here because of the fan. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, DBounce said:

I also recently heard about the fixed pattern noise on their 4k model. That also needs to be made right.

Wait... what? 

I thought I follow Kinefinity news along really closely (am an admin for the biggest group for Kinefinity after all), but I don't think I've heard of this before. Could  you please link to an example? Thanks. Otherwise I just shall remain skeptical about believing this. 

5 minutes ago, DBounce said:

This sensor is proving a real hit with filmakers. Not sure why people keep bringing up the GH5... it uses a different sensor. The GH5S is another animal. 

Probably people bring up the GH5 exactly because the sensor is different and thus has more unique points of difference vs the BMPCC4K (such as higher resolution stills + IBIS). 

[DBounce]

1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

Blackmagic Design probably listens better to their users..... ? ;-)

But yes, I agree, the GH5/GH5S still hold a strong position in the market themselves. Even with the release of the BMPCC4K, whenever it starts shipping. 

Be interesting to see high ISO results, and if BMPCC4K has a performance edge here because of the fan. 

 

 

I still plan to order this camera. But I'm not doing so until they are actually in stock. I feel competition is good, and the BMPCC4k might well prove to help drive down the cost of cinema cameras. That's a good thing however you look at it. Also great that they choose to throw in a full copy of Resolve. 

What is surprising is that this camera is not being compared to the original pocket at all. 

[IronFilm]

2 minutes ago, DBounce said:

What is surprising is that this camera is not being compared to the original pocket at all. 

Well the original is old news? And the differences are obvious. 

Bigger, bigger resolution, bigger screen, bigger frame rates, bigger battery life. 

[DBounce]

1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

Well the original is old news? And the differences are obvious. 

Bigger, bigger resolution, bigger screen, bigger frame rates, bigger battery life. 

Sure, yes... but wouldn't we all have preferred if the Pocket could have evolved, to 4k raw, with decent battery life, better screen that flipped etc. The new camera will likely be a great addition to the line-up. But it is nothing to do with the Pocket. It should really be its own model. Not the successor to the Pocket.

[BTM_Pix]

Ursa Nano it is then

[IronFilm]

3 minutes ago, DBounce said:

Not the successor to the Pocket.

Oh there are always people who say "this isn't a true successor model".

Just like I recall some people saying the GH3 wasn't a proper replacement to the GH2. 
Or people who didn't think of the D750 as deserving of the D7x0 series name which the D700 had started. Or heck even people who thought the D500 wasn't a proper replacement for the D300!! (really???)

The only justified picky point about the BMPCC4K as to why it can't deserve to use the BMPCC's name as its replacement is its SIZE.  Because yeah, it is pretty bulk, certainly far from "pocket" size like the name says! But then again even the original BMPCC was "pocket" in name only for most people, as it was a fairly big stretch itself. So this is just nitpicking. (after all the URSA Mini was hardly "Mini" itself! But I don't mind "Mini" being in its name)

And the BMPCC4K is still clearly by far and by far the smallest of the current new generation of BMD cameras, and in that respect it deserves the name "Pocket". 

4 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Ursa Nano it is then

I am kinda hoping for an URSA Micro Pro, which is positioned between the BMPCC4K and the URSA Mini Pro. 

[anonim]

26 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Probably people bring up the GH5 exactly because the sensor is different and thus has more unique points of difference vs the BMPCC4K (such as higher resolution stills + IBIS). 

Strangely, you put almost identical words that I already wrote as answer And to add - because, just for one example, year ago Neuman's put their "Dies Somnum" short movie that received here unanimous acclamation for its "cinematic" quality.

 

[Don Kotlos]

Here is another rundown of the specs: 

https://wolfcrow.com/blog/best-4k-60-fps-cinema-camera-under-2500-a-fun-comparison-between-the-blackmagic-design-pocket-camera-4k-panasonic-gh5-and-gh5s-and-the-z-cam-e2/

Comparing footage will be a bit more interesting, but my guess is that as with any camera nowadays, it will come down to our personal opinion ...

[mercer]

Maybe they should have named it the 4K Cargo Pocket II... But in all honesty, unless you used the P1 with native pancake lenses or c-mounts without a cage, it was never a pocket camera.

[Cinegain]

The E2 just seems too much of a hassle to get operational (and intended that way too). Shame, because the E1 was all about getting you a self-contained MFT camera and keeping the smallest formfactor possible. It was sort of a GoPro with MFT mount.

The GH5S I really liked because I've always felt the need for APS-C (FF is not an option as I do not like to get married to the fullframe eco system), the performance from the 4/3" sensor always left a little wishing for more flexibility from it. You could of course make stuff work, but you'd put a lot of your capacity to those technical considerations when creativity shouldn't be caged within certain boundaries. I think they really did something cool with the GH5S. The DualISO mostly of course, but there's also a slight improvement in tonality/gradation/color/shadwo details/highlight roll-off. Yes, you trade in the IBIS, but it does seem to help a little with more organic motion and of course prevents this juddering sensor in certain situations. But in the end, it's no difference than the GH2, T2i/550D, 5DmkII days or many present day's cinema camera for that matter. This also concerns C-AF where Canon's DualPixel AF is the top of the field benchmark. Yeah, it's practical as hell at times, but I feel like focus is a creative decision, you're literally directing your audience's focus where you want it to be and for that cinema cameras rely on focus pulling, rather than AF systems. So, in a way, getting to terms with this process will only give you an advantage by the time you're booking bigger projects and start to rent some of these higher-end cameras.

The original BMPCC was dope as fuck of course. The small formfactor and the gorgeous thick cinema-feel footage that it recorded. Otherwise, it was pretty much junk. The batterylife, the screen, the way it handles audio... you really sort of have to turn a blind eye to appreciate what it does at the core. So surely, this new BMPCC4K is bigger (and uglier, I'd rather call this the BMUCC (BlackMagic Ugly Cinema Camera)), but it really is sorta form follows function here. No longer S16 but full 4/3" sensor readout you're getting. The question really is... using the same sensor, are they able to pull out that Blackmagic mojo from it? The GH5S also claimed 13 stops I believe, but then the reality of 11 or so stops or something kicks in. And that's really where the Blackmagic Cinema (not Studio so much) cameras shine: that thick organic looking footage with lovely dynamic range/roll-off. Wonder how it will be here. Color is bound to be gorgeous, but Panasonic has made great strides since the GH4 in this area. So it really becomes... will this look more like the original BMPCC or will this look roughly similar to what you'd get out of the GH5S and what people would call 'video-ey'. Aside from that, some cool features. Huge 5" touchscreen on the back running the URSA OS. Excellent ports configuration!

What I don't quite get is the hint that this will be great to record oneself, incl. a record button where the thumb rests if you hold it selfie-style. People turn to Canon for vlog cameras because: DualPixel AF. A lot of their cameras are restricted to 1080p, but this allows for smooth editing and quick rendering/exports & uploading = fast turnarounds/content sharing. Colors straight out of camera are considered 'pretty' the way they are and people won't have to do much in terms of colorcorrection/grading. Maybe a quick curve and they're done. So I'm not sure how that translates to a camera of which its purpose is almost the opposite of the above. Regarding framing and checking focus... how'd you do that here without the inclusion of a vari-angle screen? External monitor, sure, but the reason people use a Canon G7XmkII or Canon 6DmkII for vlogging is partly as well because of the integrated flip-out screen (it's a reason why some vloggers didn't pick up a Sony camera). They want an all-in-one package. People need to stop confusing vloggers for cinematographers that want to use cinema-style cameras. With vloggers it's all about convenience and the least possible drawbacks. Anything to make the shooting and post-production as quick as possible. But oh well.

For me it's really between the GH5S and BMPCC4K now. We'll indeed need to wait and see how the BMPCC4K will turn out and first sample footage. In the end though, for the cinema-style approach it's probably the best up from a GH4/GH5. And I find the price rather sensational. It includes the Studio NLE and get the Atomos Ninja V monitor to go with it and you're still spending less than a GH5S alone. I'm glad that the MFT ecosystem has a brighter future than ever and I don't need to switch systems just yet. For me what matters is getting results with a compact set-up. I like the possibility of rigging things up like a christmas tree, the way you would a proper modular cinema camera. But to me the ability to keep things very basic and very compact is the biggest plus a camera can have. I will miss out on IBIS and it won't have great options for stills, but that's why I have the G9. In the end all these cameras have different fortes, but the great thing is they share the same lens ecosystem with so many options in terms of budget, sizes, approaches and quality.

[mercer]

However, it was a pocket cinema camera, so I don’t think it was ever intended to be literal.

To add, I really think BM skipped a generation with this camera and if the evolution would have been more organic, who’s to say. 

[anonim]

4 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

Here is another rundown of the specs: 

https://wolfcrow.com/blog/best-4k-60-fps-cinema-camera-under-2500-a-fun-comparison-between-the-blackmagic-design-pocket-camera-4k-panasonic-gh5-and-gh5s-and-the-z-cam-e2/

Comparing footage will be a bit more interesting, but my guess is that as with any camera nowadays, it will come down to our personal opinion ...

Thanks... Just I can't understand how might be possible to compare actual price of these cameras? Aside of that what is really easy reachable market price (because GH5 already has massive discount, even GH5s) - but, how we could know what will be the market price of GH5s when BMPCC starts its selling life?

What I know is that I slowly started to collect money for acquisition of GH5s as another camera besides GH5, but announce of BMPCC stoped me in this idea. (That's I called clever crowdfunding of time - BM has me now as first crowdfunder...)

[jonpais]

2 minutes ago, anonim said:

Thanks... Just I can't understand how might be possible to compare actual price of these cameras? Aside of that what is really easy reachable market price (because GH5 already has massive discount, even GH5s) - but, how we could know what will be the market price of GH5s when BMPCC starts its selling life?

What I know is that I slowly started to collect money for acquisition of GH5s as another camera besides GH5, but announce of BMPCC stoped me in this idea. (That's I called clever crowdfunding of time - BM has me now as first crowdfunder...)

Massive discount? Cool! Please share the link to a site that is massively cheaper than the $1,800 I paid last year with extra battery and V-log.

[anonim]

14 minutes ago, jonpais said:

Massive discount? Cool! Please share the link to a site that is massively cheaper than the $1,800 I paid last year with extra battery and V-log.

You see - you already got it with massive discount... as I understand it I already posted amazon link - but you thought it as a seller on suspect. I also posted link with totally guarantee legal price in eglobal in UK for about 1200 pounds.

[sanveer]

33 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

Here is another rundown of the specs: 

https://wolfcrow.com/blog/best-4k-60-fps-cinema-camera-under-2500-a-fun-comparison-between-the-blackmagic-design-pocket-camera-4k-panasonic-gh5-and-gh5s-and-the-z-cam-e2/

Comparing footage will be a bit more interesting, but my guess is that as with any camera nowadays, it will come down to our personal opinion ...

This review is filled with strange errors from sensor size, to ports to everything else. The author was in a hurry to make a comparison and did not bother to actually check all the details. Which is unfortunate, because I have watched some of his videos and also read some of his posts, and I quite like what I saw and read.

I only posted a screenshot of the Conclusions Table. I could have pointed out errors in many places, but I didn't want to write a thesis on it. Too much effort and would have been too boring. 

Also, I must point out, that Blackmagic for some curious reason has advertised the height of the sensor as being less (much like how Panasonic was being secretive about the Exact Specs of the sensor on the GH5s). Most likely the kinnefinity 4k also sports the same sensor with the same dual ISO and sub 35mm sensor being the hint.

[Oliver Daniel]

I'm loving this M43 revolution...

Got the GH5 (not the S). 

Pre-ordered the Pocket 4k. 

Will try out this E2 thing. 

The dawn of not having to spend more than £2000 on a professional level camera, ever again, is here. (more budget on lenses and lights then!)