The M43 Cinema - 3 Way Battle

[sanveer]

3 hours ago, jonpais said:

Not so sure about this. If I were a hybrid shooter, I wouldn’t hesitate to choose Sony or Fuji over the Z Cam. And other manufacturers offer features that may be of greater importance to users. But I will agree that if these smaller players push the larger brands to offer more, it could only be a good thing for us. Panasonic, Sony and Fuji have made great strides in the hybrid camera space - cameras like the Z Cam and Pocket II are straight up video (or cinema) cameras.

While it's great to have hybrid cameras, I guess it is just too much strain on individuals to multi-task on projects. Also, while the Sonys have great photo capabilities, their codecs for video have limitations especially because they want to maintain their high end cameras. A lot of people manage with then just fine, but 10-bit 4-2-2 could have been a very good addition, especially for post work, and more professional setups.

IMHO anything with 12-bit RAW of 12MP is sufficient for photography for film stills (continuity and posters). 

 

On 13/04/2018 at 9:08 PM, Don Kotlos said:

 

I am not that sure that the ZCam E2 needs much to get operational. If this camera is used for the stuff it is intended aka tethered shooting, then you only need a power source. Battery or cable. 

Also don't forget that you can use your phone through the USB-C as a monitor, no dongle necessary. 

 

If it has a good app for monitoring, it would actually be a good camera. The price would be good, regardless of the lack of monitor or viewfinder, mics, limited storage options (only CFast) etc etc. I do hope though, that they throw in some freebies to make the deal sweeter (like somw huge discounts on Atomos monitors or maybe a 5 inch monitoring tablet free) and introduce some a few flavour of RAW. 

[jonpais]

40 minutes ago, sanveer said:

While it's great to have hybrid cameras, I guess it is just too much strain on individuals to multi-task on projects. Also, while the Sonys have great photo capabilities, their codecs for video have limitations especially because they want to maintain their high end cameras. A lot of people manage with then just fine, but 10-bit 4-2-2 could have been a very good addition, especially for post work, and more professional setups.

IMHO anything with 12-bit RAW of 12MP is sufficient for photography for film stills (continuity and posters). 

 

 

If it has a good app for monitoring, it would actually be a good camera. The price would be good, regardless of the lack of monitor or viewfinder, mics, limited storage options (only CFast) etc etc. I do hope though, that they throw in some freebies to make the deal sweeter (like somw huge discounts on Atomos monitors or maybe a 5 inch monitoring tablet free) and introduce some a few flavour of RAW. 

I’ve got no need for a hybrid either, but I won’t lie and say I don’t appreciate dozens of features on the GH5. Good thing is, I can use it and the Pocket without investing a fortune in new glass or adapters. 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, jonpais said:

Good thing is, I can use it and the Pocket without investing a fortune in new glass or adapters. 

Yeah, this is one of my issues with the Pocket 4K and may be why I don’t buy one right away. Until I bought my 5D and spent nearly nothing on native Canon lenses, I’ve always shot with vintage glass.

Through the years, with all of the cameras I have purchased, I have grown tired of using adapters... especially the big adapters required for mirrorless cameras. So the thought of going back to those huge adapters is not really appealing at all.

As of now my game plan is to use some 25mm c-mounts and maybe  some cheap, funky native lenses from Meike, Fujian and the like.

Since I have a strange feeling I’ll still prefer my 5D3 over the P2, I may force myself to only buy one lens for it... something fast in the 17-25mm range.

If I really like the P2, I may get a Panny 20mm and 12-35mm to have a two lens set up. Otherwise my goal is to keep it simple. This camera does so much right out of the gate, that I want to keep it as small and close to handheld as possible... monopod at most... but maybe a chest pod of some sort. With it’s funky size and shape, any kind of large set up will draw too much unwanted attention.

And this is why cameras like the GH5 are paramount to zero budget indie filmmaking. With the tiniest of set ups and a camera strap, one can blend in with the crowd and shoot a film unbeknownst to tourists, diners, and passers by.

 

[jonpais]

9 minutes ago, mercer said:

Yeah, this is one of my issues with the Pocket 4K and may be why I don’t buy one right away. Until I bought my 5D and spent nearly nothing on native Canon lenses, I’ve always shot with vintage glass.

Through the years, with all of the cameras I have purchased, I have grown tired of using adapters... especially the big adapters required for mirrorless cameras. So the thought of going back to those huge adapters is not really appealing at all.

As of now my game plan is to use some 25mm c-mounts and maybe  some cheap, funky native lenses from Meike, Fujian and the like.

Since I have a strange feeling I’ll still prefer my 5D3 over the P2, I may force myself to only buy one lens for it... something fast in the 17-25mm range.

If I really like the P2, I may get a Panny 20mm and 12-35mm to have a two lens set up. Otherwise my goal is to keep it simple. This camera does so much right out of the gate, that I want to keep it as small and close to handheld as possible... monopod at most... but maybe a chest pod of some sort. With it’s funky size and shape, any kind of large set up will draw too much unwanted attention.

And this is why cameras like the GH5 are paramount to zero budget indie filmmaking. With the tiniest of set ups and a camera strap, one can blend in with the crowd and shoot a film unbeknownst to tourists, diners, and passers by.

 

All good points. I don't use adapters anymore. Just dislike the added weight. 

[mercer]

5 minutes ago, jonpais said:

All good points. I don't use adapters anymore. Just dislike the added weight. 

With my 5D adapters are so small and thin, they’re not a huge deal, but with mirrorless, I find their size messes up the balance. And with native M4/3 lenses, I have only really liked the Olympus 17mm and the Voigt 25mm. I didn’t like the build quality of the other lenses I tested. I assume the Leica lenses are great, but they’re a litttle out of my price range. So we’ll see.

As much as I want a P2, I could see myself being one of the later adopters of it. If things go well in the next 6 months to a year, I may go to a bigger cinema camera and if they go not so well, I may be forced to go really cheap. I’m in the middle of a transitional phase with this hobby... a shit or get off the pot scenario. 

[jonpais]

2 minutes ago, mercer said:

With my 5D adapters are so small and thin, they’re not a huge deal, but with mirrorless, I find their size messes up the balance. And with native M4/3 lenses, I have only really liked the Olympus 17mm and the Voigt 25mm. I didn’t like the build quality of the other lenses I tested. I assume the Leica lenses are great, but they’re a litttle out of my price range. So we’ll see.

As much as I want a P2, I could see myself being one of the later adopters of it. If things go well in the next 6 months to a year, I may go to a bigger cinema camera and if they go not so well, I may be forced to go really cheap. I’m in the middle of a transitional phase with this hobby... a shit or get off the pot scenario. 

I'm taking the wait and see approach myself. It's still several months away, and my work isn't suddenly going to win any Oscars anyhow.

[mercer]

3 minutes ago, jonpais said:

I'm taking the wait and see approach myself. It's still several months away, and my work isn't suddenly going to win any Oscars anyhow.

That’s the problem with every new camera, really... unless the P2 can finish my script, give me a shot list and get me some great performances... maybe those features are buried in the specs somewhere. 

The truth of the matter is that some kid with an iPhone will probably get a film in Sundance before I do with my hypothetical, future C200.

In some ways, I almost wonder if an old school, C100 would be a better investment at this point for someone like me. I already have a camera that shoots Raw. And I already have EF lenses. And if I could get anywhere near as good an image as the video below, what’s the difference really...

Or even this shot with a GH2...

Or maybe I just have an affinity for cameras I couldn’t afford 5-6 years ago. Ha.

[Emanuel]

LOL: ) hey Glenn... @mercer have you ever seen this feature film shot on GH2?

 

[Matt Kieley]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

The truth of the matter is that some kid with an iPhone will probably get a film in Sundance before I do with my hypothetical, future C200.

There actually already was a Sundance movie shot on an iPhone: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3824458/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[mercer]

51 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

LOL: ) hey Glenn... @mercer have you ever seen this feature film shot on GH2?

 

Hey Emanuel, I’ve seen the trailer before but not the film. However, I do love that look. Do you know which hack they used?

9 minutes ago, Matt Kieley said:

There actually already was a Sundance movie shot on an iPhone: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3824458/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Yeah, I know about Tangerine, but I think it was made by actual filmmakers. That statement really could have had... insert camera here... it was more a point about chasing every new camera that comes out. And no matter how hard or long you chase, somebody is going to put something amazing out with next to nothing. And the more I think about it... the next to nothing will end up getting more press and street cred in the end.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

Hey Emanuel, I’ve seen the trailer before but not the film. However, I do love that look. Do you know which hack they used?

Shane Carruth -- one man show there ; ) hadn't spilled much about it. Nick's tip however hinted his Driftwood Quantum 9b... ;-) as much as seems so.

I suggest to you and everyone to actually watch it (asks for twice and subsequent screenings like any substantive food for thought served as movie entry ; ))

...and start to pay more attention to the wise posts and those cameras recommendations of your own and top-notch eyes the standard of your input discloses, pal :P

- E.

[mercer]

2 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Shane Carruth -- one man show there ; ) hadn't spilled much about it. Nick's tip however hinted his Driftwood Quantum 9b... ;-) as much as seems so.

I suggest to you and everyone to actually watch it (asks for twice and subsequent screenings like any substantive food for thought served as movie entry ; ))

...and start to pay more attention to the wise posts and those cameras recommendations of your own and top-notch eyes the standard of your input discloses, pal :P

- E.

It’s on my list of films to watch. In regards to your last statement... I can never tell if you’re poking fun or actually giving a compliment due to the language barrier but I tend to just accept the positive interpretation. Lol. 

With that being said, while I enjoy all of the benefits of new technology and cheap cameras discussed in posts like this, there are so many great cameras from yesteryear available for next to nothing now. And any one of them is capable of creating beautiful visual stories.

In some ways, a $1500 C100 sounds more appealing than a $1300 P2. And in every way, the same story told on both cameras will have the exact same visual and emotional impact.

[TwoScoops]

 

This homage to Christine was shot on a 7D in 2012. Loved watching it so much I looked the camera up, not the other way around. 

[mercer]

9 minutes ago, TwoScoops said:

 

This homage to Christine was shot on a 7D in 2012. Loved watching it so much I looked the camera up, not the other way around. 

This looks great, I can’t wait to watch it!

I’m going to make another post about older cameras and how they’re still viable today so I won’t step on this post’s toes anymore. Hopefully people will link to some samples like this.

@sanveer sorry for the off topic.

[sanveer]

On 13/04/2018 at 1:48 PM, Anaconda_ said:

But also maybe add about release times?

I didn't realise how important it may be then. But, approximate release dates helps prospective buys allocate money for purchases and also to plan a few future projects accordingly (especially ones that take a while to make and also perhaps need higher end work). 

[Emanuel]

10 hours ago, mercer said:

It’s on my list of films to watch. In regards to your last statement... I can never tell if you’re poking fun or actually giving a compliment due to the language barrier but I tend to just accept the positive interpretation. Lol. 

With that being said, while I enjoy all of the benefits of new technology and cheap cameras discussed in posts like this, there are so many great cameras from yesteryear available for next to nothing now. And any one of them is capable of creating beautiful visual stories.

In some ways, a $1500 C100 sounds more appealing than a $1300 P2. And in every way, the same story told on both cameras will have the exact same visual and emotional impact.

hehe yeah, I guess I love to compliment people making fun of it when happens (not exactly on someone, for my goodness sake : ) so you've got it right : )) Positive interpretations also have a merit of their own, even when needed or not. In other words... If I praise something you did, I guess we both should be fine : D There are people with eyes and some other with eyes too, but lacking all the rest variably no matter how the efforts raise the bar :X Your comments often show it is unlikely you miss anything out there ; ) always appreciated, man :-)

Without mention, we share the same principle aside new technology entries: there are no outdated cinematic cameras...

[Damphousse]

On 4/16/2018 at 10:57 AM, mercer said:

If I really like the P2, I may get a Panny 20mm and 12-35mm to have a two lens set up. Otherwise my goal is to keep it simple. This camera does so much right out of the gate, that I want to keep it as small and close to handheld as possible... monopod at most... but maybe a chest pod of some sort.

Just a heads up m43 lenses can have some issues.  They cut corners when they design them and then the camera bodies do an on the fly correction to the image before it is written to the SD card.  Since the BMPCC 4k doesn't do these in camera corrections your results will not match what comes out of a GH5 or whatever.  Obviously quality varies from lens to lens.  Some are rated pretty well even without the image correcting interpolation... others... well not as well.  Each lens will require research.

[mercer]

42 minutes ago, Damphousse said:

Just a heads up m43 lenses can have some issues.  They cut corners when they design them and then the camera bodies do an on the fly correction to the image before it is written to the SD card.  Since the BMPCC 4k doesn't do these in camera corrections your results will not match what comes out of a GH5 or whatever.  Obviously quality varies from lens to lens.  Some are rated pretty well even without the image correcting interpolation... others... well not as well.  Each lens will require research.

Good to know thanks. I had the 12-35mm with the OG Pocket and it seemed okay. Most likely I’ll use c-mounts or maybe I’ll get a Voigt. 

I saw a few videos and the Panny 14mm f/2.5 looked pretty good on the original Pocket as well.

[Damphousse]

3 hours ago, mercer said:

Good to know thanks. I had the 12-35mm with the OG Pocket and it seemed okay. Most likely I’ll use c-mounts or maybe I’ll get a Voigt. 

I saw a few videos and the Panny 14mm f/2.5 looked pretty good on the original Pocket as well.

Good to know.  I have a kit panny lens but never used it much.  I promptly got the BMPCC specific EF speedbooster and just used my Canon lenses.  I don't like the whole adapter thing and it was kind of dumb to let in all that light with the speedbooster and then have to put on a crazy heavy ND filter but I liked working with a more s35 field of view.

I may follow your lead and get a c-mount or Voigt as a compact walk around solution.

I still have that crappy kit lens so I'll play with that till I make my decision.  I haven't preordered yet so I guess I will get my camera in Summer 2019!

[sanveer]

I seem to have discovered a series of bad news. To make it less severe I will disburse it in Installments.

1. The Z Cam E2 doesn't seem to have implemented the Dual Native ISO on their camera. I am sure it requires some custom circuiry or wiring with regard to the design, and Z Cam didn't think it was worth the effort or the sensor was too much effort for a small startup such as theirs and they circumvented the entire effort of implementing it with dual ISO. I am guessing, as a result the low light may suffer (greatly). There is a likelihood, that the Native ISO is ISO 100 and curiously at that ISO it seems to have/ they claim it has a dynamic range of 13.5 Stops.

 

I could obviously be wrong, so we will have to wait for confirmation from Z Cam.