Rethinking Zooms for the M43 Ecosystem

[tupp]

Not sure why Leica couldn't make an outboard version of their fixed zoom on the Panasonic LX100.  It is fast, sharp, and it has a nice zoom range -- and it covers a 4/3 sensor.

[cantsin]

9 minutes ago, tupp said:

Not sure why Leica couldn't make an outboard version of their fixed zoom on the Panasonic LX100.  It is fast, sharp, and it has a nice zoom range -- and it covers a 4/3 sensor.

The Panaleica lenses are neither Leica-made nor (in most cases) Leica-designed, but Panasonic lenses with a Leica brand license and quality certification. 

It's very likely that this lens design cannot be made an interchangeable lens because it probably has a shorter flange mount distance than MFT (which helps achieving larger apertures in a compact design). Plus, the lens heavily relies on software corrections. Its f1.7-2.8 aperture corresponds to a much lower transmission value if you look at the pure optical image without software vignetting correction.

[sanveer]

44 minutes ago, cantsin said:

The Panaleica lenses are neither Leica-made nor (in most cases) Leica-designed, but Panasonic lenses with a Leica brand license and quality certification. 

It's very likely that this lens design cannot be made an interchangeable lens because it probably has a shorter flange mount distance than MFT (which helps achieving larger apertures in a compact design). Plus, the lens heavily relies on software corrections. Its f1.7-2.8 aperture corresponds to a much lower transmission value if you look at the pure optical image without software vignetting correction.

The lens causes the sensor to have a lot of crop, and that is why despite being a 16MP sensor, its highest resolution is limited to 12.7MP (in the 4:3 aspect ratio). I am guessing it was designed by Panasonic to actually compete with the 1inch sensors by offering a fast lens and slightly larger sensor, despite the crop from the M43 sensor size. Despite the low MP count, it seems to have worked quite well.

[aldolega]

Yea that lens is not making it off of a body. Speaking of the LX100, Panasonic could dominate the blogger market if they'd just do an LX200 already, with better AF, the 20MP sensor, IBIS, mic jack, and a flip screen that goes up over the top (like an A5100). 

[kye]

1 hour ago, aldolega said:

Yea that lens is not making it off of a body. Speaking of the LX100, Panasonic could dominate the blogger market if they'd just do an LX200 already, with better AF, the 20MP sensor, IBIS, mic jack, and a flip screen that goes up over the top (like an A5100). 

There is a deep divide in the vlogging community about where the flip screen should be..  those that use in-camera sound and prefer the screen flips over the top because it looks more natural if they look at the screen while shooting, and those that use an external microphone which is mounted in the hot-shoe of the camera and therefore they prefer a side-flipping screen like Canon.

.....then there are the Sony shooters, who focus on their hand and then just stare into their 16-35 hoping they're in frame!!!    

[tupp]

5 hours ago, cantsin said:

The Panaleica lenses are neither Leica-made nor (in most cases) Leica-designed, but Panasonic lenses with a Leica brand license and quality certification.

Interesting... so does that mean that the lens on the Leica D-Lux (typ 109) is actually designed and made by Panasonic?

 

 

5 hours ago, cantsin said:

It's very likely that this lens design cannot be made an interchangeable lens because it probably has a shorter flange mount distance than MFT (which helps achieving larger apertures in a compact design).

I don't think that flange focal distance applies to cameras with fixed lenses -- there's no flange.

 

At any rate, the only physical limits in converting that glass to an outboard M4/3 lens is for the rear optical elements (and their barrel) to clear the M4/3 throat and for those elements to not make contact with a camera's shutter.

 

 

4 hours ago, sanveer said:

The lens causes the sensor to have a lot of crop, and that is why despite being a 16MP sensor, its highest resolution is limited to 12.7MP (in the 4:3 aspect ratio).

That makes sense, but the crop factor on the LX100 is 2.2 -- just slightly more than M4/3.  The difference between 16MP and 12.7MP seems to be more significant than the slight difference in crop factor between the LX100 and M4/3.

[aldolega]

3 hours ago, kye said:

There is a deep divide in the vlogging community about where the flip screen should be..  those that use in-camera sound and prefer the screen flips over the top because it looks more natural if they look at the screen while shooting, and those that use an external microphone which is mounted in the hot-shoe of the camera and therefore they prefer a side-flipping screen like Canon.

.....then there are the Sony shooters, who focus on their hand and then just stare into their 16-35 hoping they're in frame!!!    

That makes sense, I was picturing flip-upwards just because it would help keep the camera small. And itwouldn't be hard at all to add a small bracket to the camera to move the mic over to the side.

[kye]

49 minutes ago, aldolega said:

That makes sense, I was picturing flip-upwards just because it would help keep the camera small. And itwouldn't be hard at all to add a small bracket to the camera to move the mic over to the side.

I've seen a few pocket cameras like you describe put microphones on the front of the camera to try and get a bit more directional audio and some footage taken in a public place seemed pretty good actually, so it's possible to make a camera that doesn't need external audio.

A product like that would be very compact and well suited for vlogging as well as normal video

[BTM_Pix]

If Panasonic ever did make that LX100 lens they would probably want about £800-900 for it so the best way to look at the LX100 is its that lens for half the price and with a camera thrown in for free. Absolute bargain !

With regard to the vloggers audio conundrum, the £9 solution is this very flexible variation on an L flash bracket which would enable the shoe mount for the microphone to arch over the flip up screen or if they mounted it the other way sit it to the side.

[sanveer]

@Andrew Reid there appears to be a minor glitch. I tried compiling a poll for lenses people think are missing or are needed for the M43 standard. When I pressed Post, that poll vanished into thin air.

Maybe so share the list here, if the poll doesn't work from mobile devices. 

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, kye said:

There is a deep divide in the vlogging community about where the flip screen should be..  those that use in-camera sound and prefer the screen flips over the top because it looks more natural if they look at the screen while shooting, and those that use an external microphone which is mounted in the hot-shoe of the camera and therefore they prefer a side-flipping screen like Canon.

I'd be running a lav, thus I vote for a screen that flips up/down!

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

19 hours ago, sanveer said:

After doing a little bit of research, I discovered that while there is a site comparing most Amatuer and Prosumer Cameras (https://camerasize.com/compare/), there appear to be none that compare Camera Lens sizes (except one that matches M43 cameras with lenses for relative look and size estimations http://four-thirds.org/en/special/matching.html). There is a strange presumption that lenses must remain small at the cost of faster glass or great options, and this applies to Panasonic too. Olympus has been shamelessly making some superb glass and some of it is pretty small too, especially for the quality and brightness that it offers. 

If Samsung could make f2-2.8 (16-50mm) Zooms, there is no reason Panasonic should not aim for Zooms that start brighter than f2.8 (Panny Leica f2.8-4 12-60mm). I saw the Zuiko f2 Zooms and they are absolutely enormous. Panasonic should aim for a combination of bright and decent range, even if it means a little large lens (not as enormous as the Zuiko f2 zooms). I don't like variable zooms, cause they suddenly feel weird if you don't close the aperture to begin with, and then zoom in.

A 12-100 versions of the stellar Olympus f4 zoom, but with an f2.8 lens would be perfect. It could be large. This single lens could outsell everything but the M43 system if it has good OIS and isn't priced above $1499.

You could compare camera+lenses sizes (some of them) in the same Camerasize site. 

- Go to  https://camerasize.com/compact/

- In the menu bar at the right of the combo box which you choose the cameras, click on the last icon (camera+lens)

- Choose a camera and click the "+" button

- The camera body will appear in top view, and over it there is a link "click to add a lens"

- Choose the lens that you want

- Add a 2nd camera body and repeat the process.

You can copy the generated URL that your browser will show in the URL bar when you have the comparison you desired and share it, like this:

https://camerasize.com/compact/#698.613,698.366,ha,t
 

[sanveer]

30 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

You could compare camera+lenses sizes (some of them) in the same Camerasize site. 

- Go to  https://camerasize.com/compact/

- In the menu bar at the right of the combo box which you choose the cameras, click on the last icon (camera+lens)

- Choose a camera and click the "+" button

- The camera body will appear in top view, and over it there is a link "click to add a lens"

- Choose the lens that you want

- Add a 2nd camera body and repeat the process.

You can copy the generated URL that your browser will show in the URL bar when you have the comparison you desired and share it, like this:

https://camerasize.com/compact/#698.613,698.366,ha,t
 

Thanks for the information. Will definitely check it out. 

7 hours ago, tupp said:

That makes sense, but the crop factor on the LX100 is 2.2 -- just slightly more than M4/3.  The difference between 16MP and 12.7MP seems to be more significant than the slight difference in crop factor between the LX100 and M4/3.

Actually, there is no question if crop, cause it' a fixed lens camera. 

[kye]

56 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

You could compare camera+lenses sizes (some of them) in the same Camerasize site. 

- Go to  https://camerasize.com/compact/

- In the menu bar at the right of the combo box which you choose the cameras, click on the last icon (camera+lens)

- Choose a camera and click the "+" button

- The camera body will appear in top view, and over it there is a link "click to add a lens"

- Choose the lens that you want

- Add a 2nd camera body and repeat the process.

You can copy the generated URL that your browser will show in the URL bar when you have the comparison you desired and share it, like this:

https://camerasize.com/compact/#698.613,698.366,ha,t
 

I was going to make a joke about why the BMPCC4K isn't in there....  but it is!

https://camerasize.com/compact/#698.613,698.366,782.5,ha,t

just for fun I put the Panasonic 14mm f2.5 pancake lens on it :D

[tupp]

4 hours ago, sanveer said:

Actually, there is no question if crop, cause it' a fixed lens camera. 

Crop factor works on fixed lens systems just like it does with interchangeable lenses -- the difference is that you merely have one possible lens with a fixed system.

 

Panasonic (and Leica) list the 10.9mm-34mm zoom as a 24mm-75mm FF equivalent.  So, the crop factor is built-in to (an can be determined from) those two given ranges.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

10 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

If Panasonic ever did make that LX100 lens they would probably want about £800-900 for it so the best way to look at the LX100 is its that lens for half the price and with a camera thrown in for free. Absolute bargain !

 

Always thought this way about my LX100 - a lens with a free camera.

Have to use it back to tinker a little bit with photo quality - always have the impression that the lens is a bit soft.

Unfortunately the video quality is now lagging behing the GX85 - G9 - G85 - GH5; the noise levels are from the GH4 generation. If it could be updated to the GX85 level, would be amazing.

[BTM_Pix]

2 minutes ago, Márcio Kabke Pinheiro said:

Unfortunately the video quality is now lagging behing the GX85 - G9 - G85 - GH5; the noise levels are from the GH4 generation. If it could be updated to the GX85 level, would be amazing.

I might have another tinker with it over the next few days regarding what happens when I was trying to put cinelike d on it.

Its been sat on the naughty step for a few months because I never got back round to trying to probe it a bit more.

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

4 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I might have another tinker with it over the next few days regarding what happens when I was trying to put cinelike d on it.

Its been sat on the naughty step for a few months because I never got back round to trying to probe it a bit more.

It would be awesome.  But I guess that the noise levels will not get better, it was the GH4 image pipeline. Never had a GH4 to know how was Cinelike D on it, though.

[BTM_Pix]

Right, after battering away at this thing all day from numerous different angles, I now remember why I put it on the back burner in the first place !

When you try and put cinelike d or v on it, it responds in exactly the opposite way you want it to and puts a ton of contrast into the image with a saturation boost just for good measure. 

The histogram looks like a truck has driven right through the middle of it and pushed everything to the shadows and highlights.

And not a small truck either.

A big fat one.

Possibly with a sidecar attached as well.

On both sides.

Trying to correct this in camera with exposure compensation and highlight/shadow curves made a difference but still nothing even approaching usable.

One interesting thing (well, interesting is all relative but after hours of fucking about with this you take your pleasure where you can) is that there is the expected colour response difference between the cinelike d and cinelike v so it knows what its supposed to be doing but this is also accompanied by a hue change. 

Again, trying to correct this with hue adjustment commands wasn't exactly a roaring success.

What I suspect is going on is the other two cameras that share the same guts, the GH4 and the HVX200, have exposed (if you pardon the pun) controls for hue, levels (i.e. 0-255) and master pedestal and its a combo of these that the LX100 just falls apart on when it receives the cinelike command.

The HVX200 is the only one that has an app (iOS only which makes it trickier though not impossible to harvest commands from) that can access those functions remotely so there is no chance of me finding anyone with that combo to have a look it. The camera I do have that has these functions is the FZ2000 but its all done in camera rather than via the app so no chance of harvesting the commands that way either.

So, sadly, no cinelike for the LX100.

Which is all the more reason to give EOS HD pro colour a whirl on it

[tupp]

19 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

So, sadly, no cinelike for the LX100.

Thanks for trying!