nikon mirrorless only a year away!

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, Don Kotlos said:

Because the Nikon lenses have a manual lever that controls the aperture. So the adaptor needs to move that lever. Here is a Vello adapter that does that and costs $400:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1349066-REG/vello_lae_se_nfv5_nikon_f_to_sony.html

But if you don't need AF/AE then you can get Nikon F to mirrorless adapters for around twenty bucks each. 

Although of course when Nikon makes theirs it will need to have maximum compatibility of features. 

[Don Kotlos]

5 hours ago, scotchtape said:

Come on guys at least be accurate with your info.  Older Nikon lenses have the apeture lever.  The recently (last year or so?) Introduced e-type lenses (still f-mount) have the aperture electronically controlled like everyone else now.

Anyways technology moves on. Compatibility would be nice but I'm sure plenty of people would buy into a new mount if the lenses were lighter and better with better af.  

The vast majority of Nikon lenses are non-E. So there is little point in making an adaptor just for the E version. I said that if they release a new mount, an adaptor would be expensive. If they do not release an adaptor then they are going to loose a lot of Nikon customers that would have to sell all their lenses making a potential switch to either Canon or Sony far easier. 

[gethin]

For what I do it would speed me up immensely to have a single camera to shoot stills and vid. THe a7 is a possibility, but I've yet to see what the usable dynamic range is like (both in stills and vid), and have been slightly put off by the reports on it's viewfinder. My d800 is nearing the end of its life, I dont know if I can wait a year.  I understand theres a lot of engineering to do, but they shouldn't have started last year, they should've started 3 or 4 years ago. It was bloody obvious this would be where they'd need to end up. 

[Aussie Ash]

There is also the complication of AF lenses  (1986-98) have a screw drive which connects to

the focus motor in the camera.Will they keep this system going for mirror less ????

The low end Nikon bodies D3000 and D5000 series have never

had this screw drive thereby limiting autofocus to modern lenses with their own built in focus

motor.

[JurijTurnsek]

CIPA sales numbers only show a slow rise in mirrorless sales, but they do not show the huge Canon/Nikon base of users not buying anything new and that would buy a mirrorless body only from their preferred brand no matter the features. Migration to Sony will slow down to a crawl, I'm afraid. Sony would more a more affordable lens line, but even then the retail presence of Canikon will be hard to beat.

I mean, what good is innovation when an average customer will believe the marketing more. And marketing can claim anything they want and a strong brand reputation will seal the deal.

[BasiliskFilm]

3 hours ago, Aussie Ash said:

There is also the complication of AF lenses  (1986-98) have a screw drive which connects to

the focus motor in the camera.Will they keep this system going for mirror less ????

The low end Nikon bodies D3000 and D5000 series have never

had this screw drive thereby limiting autofocus to modern lenses with their own built in focus

motor.

Sony have an A to E mount adaptor that works with Minolta/Sony screw driven auto focus lenses. No reason why you couldn't put a motor in an adaptor as there is plenty of space between a short flange mirrorless and the back of a Nikon F mount lens. Of course there could be a cheaper adaptor for the current lenses that only use electronic (not mechanical) coupling.
Part of the appeal of Nikon is that you can still use 40 year old lenses (and many of them are gems) as they have kept the same mount, but it is a bit of a technical headache going forward.

[Kisaha]

56 minutes ago, JurijTurnsek said:

CIPA sales numbers only show a slow rise in mirrorless sales, but they do not show the huge Canon/Nikon base of users not buying anything new and that would buy a mirrorless body only from their preferred brand no matter the features. Migration to Sony will slow down to a crawl, I'm afraid. Sony would more a more affordable lens line, but even then the retail presence of Canikon will be hard to beat.

I mean, what good is innovation when an average customer will believe the marketing more. And marketing can claim anything they want and a strong brand reputation will seal the deal.

Sigma/Tamron/Samyang already offer AF lenses and they will produce more zooms this year. Sony E lenses are extremely expensive, and not any better than Canonikon ones, but now that other makers make cheap E lenses, the system is becoming more attractive. Even Fuji make pro video E lenses these days.

That huge Canonikon base, maybe won't buy another camera, ever. I know plenty of people buying a dSLR back in the golden age, using it a couple of times, and then put them in the closet for ever. Especially now that phones are good enough for them, and admittedly easier to carry and shoot, they are not going back to any dSLR or mirrorless.

It is pretty obvious that mirrorless is the future (and past and present for me, as I am using mirrorless for half a decade now), I do not see what benefit dSLRs will have in a couple of years from now. Migration to Sony will slow down, for sure, but it is already an industry standard, in many cases, there are just too many A7 cameras around, a lot of people have idolized the A7s series, the A7r series has an incredible megapixel count, and the A7 series is amazing for an entry level FULL FRAME mirrorless camera. Also, a6xxx cameras are the top sellers in every online shop for a few years now, and most of the young people starting in "business", are Sony users, and know only Sony as a "serious" camera manufacturer, so the trend is the opposite for them. A6000 has sold amazingly well in amateurs.

I am just saying that it is more complicated than "huge Canon/Nikon user base", that was the case a few years ago, but just recently that has changed, and I seriously doubt Nikon will make a camera like the A7iii (spec wise) and that will cost less than 3333euros (and Sony is 2300euros here). We will see of course, but Sony IS a player, plus has access to a huge R&D department that makes also game consoles, mobile phones, most of the sensors in the market, so can get components easier than Nikon, cheaper, and have more info beforehand. Not that we have seen those in their cameras (touch screen implementation is a joke, their screens are mediocre - at least, overheating was a major issue for years, QC is questionable, Nikon/Fuji are getting better results from the same sensors, e.t.c), but still they have some advantages.

[BTM_Pix]

Would I complain about having to use an adapter? I'd be a bit of a hypocrite I suppose if I did as I routinely use Nikon's teleconverters for work without any issues. They lock tight and any balance issues they cause are offset by them mainly in my case being used on lenses that need monopod support anyway. 

Would I be thrilled in having to do that on ALL my lenses ? Probably not but I'd be FAR less thrilled having to rebuy the rest of my core lens set in this speculated new mount, especially as I'd have to take a hit on selling lenses that were now part of a 'dead' system. Canon FD lenses are not cheap because of their optical quality and this would be the same situation.

The price of the "upgrade" to a Nikon mirrorless system with a new mount and to remain native would be prohibitively expensive. The f2.8 zooms and long primes are not suddenly going to get significantly smaller and cheaper because they are in this new mount.  

So, if they do a mirrorless that doesn't have an adapter that has "as native" performance for existing lenses then they will have a problem retaining existing users when their current DSLRs are ready to be replaced.

And the issue that they also face is that with cameras like the D5, the D500 and the D850 etc the rabid upgrade cycle isn't exactly what it was 10 years ago. We are at a point with those cameras where its only going to be wear and tear - not performance - that prompts you to upgrade. The double edged sword there for Nikon is they have not only produced cameras with great image quality but also some serious robustness! 

With every week that passes, the other systems seem to be getting more and more lens options. There will come a point where all Nikon have left to bargain with are the fast long primes and the legacy stuff. In the case of the former that's just a niche within a niche and I believe Sigma will step into the breach there and in the latter, well, lenses you've already sold won't pay the bills.

Having said all that.....

There is a couple of opportunities here for Nikon to make things both smoother for existing owners and actually make it very appealing.

The first is to have the option for the mount to be user interchangeable as per RED, Ursa, Kinefinity etc so that we wouldn't have the two points of failure potential and the wear issue using an adapter. If its actually connected to the body rather than the new mount then that will keep everyone happy. For my, and I suspect many others, usage I think we'll be going out to shoot with lenses that are in one mount or the other. For anyone who would want the flexibility of quick change as they will be going out with 3 new mount and 1 old mount lens then Nikon can still do a regular tube type converter.

The second thing they can do is make one of those mount options also encompass a speed booster. The option of shooting video in Super35 with fast primes that are now even faster and still have full AF? Yes please.

Ditto they could also utilise the extra space to produce an electronic ND version of the mount. 

If they see supporting the old mount in terms of it being an opportunity rather than a duty/hindrance then they could have a monster on their hands.

It could be the true hybrid that, thus far has eluded everyone.

Obviously if they come out with something that's 5 grand with two plastic kit lenses and 3 slow primes with an adapter for legacy lenses that weighs more than an anvil and offers just enough AF to not be sued under the trade descriptions act then they can fuck right off

[Kisaha]

I believe Nikon will have an active adapter offered for cheap/free. Continuity is a huge thing for them, more than anyone else, and they will deliver. I am 97% certain of this. They have produced a few patents the last couple of years of interesting stuff, and definitely they need a different, more modern mount, but with backwards compatibility. They will find a great solution I believe, and maybe that is the reason of the late arrival of that camera, but as I said earlier, maybe that will be later that it should!

Also, they can go all in in video mode, they are a bit behind everyone right now (except Olympus, and Pentax, are we still consider Pentax a player?!), but they have no cine camera line to protect, and already they have delivered excellent image quality in some models. An amazing Nikon mirrorless with one of the best SOC video, will worth the, around, 3.000euros that Nikon will ask for their full frame mirrorless. Fuji asks 2300euros for a machine that most people will consider vastly inferior to a great Nikon full frame mirrorless. If the video is so so, then Sony will be a better option for true hybrid shooters in full frame, and the rest will happily stay with m43/Fuji, or move to newer, greater, EOS M cameras.

Video is the battle field right now, every one is talking about AF and Video performance as top selling points. Maybe 10bit will be a mandatory spec in a couple of years, the photo quality is quite good already, but video can be improved a lot.

 

[Mokara]

9 hours ago, JurijTurnsek said:

CIPA sales numbers only show a slow rise in mirrorless sales, but they do not show the huge Canon/Nikon base of users not buying anything new and that would buy a mirrorless body only from their preferred brand no matter the features. Migration to Sony will slow down to a crawl, I'm afraid. Sony would more a more affordable lens line, but even then the retail presence of Canikon will be hard to beat.

I mean, what good is innovation when an average customer will believe the marketing more. And marketing can claim anything they want and a strong brand reputation will seal the deal.

Sony have their foot in the door first so to speak. Both Canon and Nikon are probably going to come up with a new mount with some sort of adapter for legacy lenses. When that happens, people upgrading are not necessarily going to be bound by their lenses. We are moving to a world that is more agnostic when it comes to lens/body selection.

I think the next few years are going to be an uncertain time for Canikon. MILC technology is going to surpass DSLR tech in terms of power and capability and what happens in their future is going to depend on how they handle that transition. I think that if they had done it earlier, say starting around 2012 or so, they would be in much less of a bind than they are now. By being conservative they have opened the door for a major competitor who got in first and now has industry leading technology at affordable prices. Rather than Sony being measured against Canon or Nikon, the reverse is going to happen. As a result the transition is going to be much more problematic for them than it otherwise should have been.

[Aussie Ash]

On 5/1/2018 at 9:20 AM, gethin said:

WTF? A year away? https://petapixel.com/2018/04/30/nikon-confirms-new-mirrorless-system-to-arrive-by-spring-2019/

Helloooo nikonnnn! You need to do a blackmagic and give us a peak by september, or it'll be all over red rover.    

Thom Hogan has been saying two entry level mirrorless APS-C bodies in the US $500-$1000  bracket to be announced in the next few months followed by a full frame around US $2,000 four or five months later.D5600 is already due for update perhaps it is

the last of the D5000 series ??

[mercer]

4 hours ago, Aussie Ash said:

Thom Hogan has been saying two entry level mirrorless APS-C bodies in the US $500-$1000  bracket to be announced in the next few months followed by a full frame around US $2,000 four or five months later.D5600 is already due for update perhaps it is

the last of the D5000 series ??

If this is true, then it’s quite possible the entry level models may have this new X mount and the pro FF will retain the traditional F mount?

I was waiting for my GF yesterday and had a minute or two to look at the camera section at Target... it was bleak, but they did have a Nikon D3400 on display. I was surprised to see it has the Flat Profile. And the kit lens’ VR was rock steady, with a great little zoom ring... seemed sharp and clean too. At $300, not a bad little pocket camera. The damn thing was TINY too. So if their entry level mirrorless cameras can offer the Flat Profile, zebras, and focus peaking on an aps-c sensor... even at 1080p... they’ll have a little winner in my books. Hell, I may go out and buy a D3400 for some inconspicuous shooting... it looks like a lot of fun. 

[Don Kotlos]

5 minutes ago, mercer said:

If this is true, then it’s quite possible the entry level models may have this new X mount and the pro FF will retain the traditional F mount?

While F mount will be convenient for all the people that have Nikon lenses, and for Nikon to make sure there is a large selection of lenses already for their new camera, I find it unlikely for two reasons:

1. It unnecessarily increases the size of the camera. Both due to dead space in the camera and because it cannot reduce the size of the wideangle lenses.

2. Camera companies make a lot of money from lenses, so I doubt they will miss on a huge opportunity to sell a ton with a new mount.  

5 minutes ago, mercer said:

I was waiting for my GF yesterday and had a minute or two to look at the camera section at Target... it was bleak, but they did have a Nikon D3400 on display. I was surprised to see it has the Flat Profile. And the kit lens’ VR was rock steady, with a great little zoom ring... seemed sharp and clean too. At $300, not a bad little pocket camera. The damn thing was TINY too. So if their entry level mirrorless cameras can offer the Flat Profile, zebras, and focus peaking on an aps-c sensor... even at 1080p... they’ll have a little winner in my books. Hell, I may go out and buy a D3400 for some inconspicuous shooting... it looks like a lot of fun. 

More fun than a Canon 4000D  

[BTM_Pix]

Thing is, I can mount all of the Nikon lenses I own to all of of the cameras I own but I can't mount all of the lenses I own to my Nikon cameras.

It would be a terrible irony if Nikon themselves produced the first camera that isn't compatible with their own lenses

Kidding of course, as I'm sure they wouldn't be insane enough to not offer a proper solution.

Seeing as the adapter only going to be a shortish tube lets go radical and keep the same physical bayonet mount for the new lens mount but make it retractable into the body. It would still keep the depth of the camera shallow enough to feel the benefit of it being mirrorless and you just extend it from the inside out for the extra flange difference when you were using the older lenses. 

Time for a lie down I think.

[mercer]

49 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

While F mount will be convenient for all the people that have Nikon lenses, and for Nikon to make sure there is a large selection of lenses already for their new camera, I find it unlikely for two reasons:

1. It unnecessarily increases the size of the camera. Both due to dead space in the camera and because it cannot reduce the size of the wideangle lenses.

2. Camera companies make a lot of money from lenses, so I doubt they will miss on a huge opportunity to sell a ton with a new mount.  

More fun than a Canon 4000D  

Ha, nice... you’ve been keeping that one in your pocket for a while.?

But Idk if I agree about the mount. There is a huge legacy there... so many lenses that won’t sell due to a new mount with a kit lens and maybe a prime.

19 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Thing is, I can mount all of the Nikon lenses I own to all of of the cameras I own but I can't mount all of the lenses I own to my Nikon cameras.

It would be a terrible irony if Nikon themselves produced the first camera that isn't compatible with their own lenses

Kidding of course, as I'm sure they wouldn't be insane enough to not offer a proper solution.

Seeing as the adapter only going to be a shortish tube lets go radical and keep the same physical bayonet mount for the new lens mount but make it retractable into the body. It would still keep the depth of the camera shallow enough to feel the benefit of it being mirrorless and you just extend it from the inside out for the extra flange difference when you were using the older lenses. 

Time for a lie down I think.

Better yet... they can just revive the IX lenses. The one thing I’ve always liked about Nikon was that I was forced to use their lenses. For a vintage lens fan like myself, it kept my options to minimum. I just shot with my Nikkors... can I really complain?

[Don Kotlos]

Haha sorry I don't know why I had felt so strongly about that one. So the comment was mostly self-reflexive. 

And about the mount, I would actually love to see an F mount mirrorless. I still have a bunch of manual Nikon glass that would be tempting to mount on a new camera. But unfortunately companies usually go for the profit. And Nikon can just easily rehouse all their long (>50mm) lenses like Sigma did for the FE line. All the new rumors point to a new Z mount. 

Also I have started using the A7rIII & 35mmf/2.8 combo a lot and I can definitely see the potential of small wide angle lenses on FF. 

I don't know if you have seen some fuji/olympus inspired fake mockups of the new Nikon mirrorless, but I would love to have one of those. Nikon should just steal his designs  

[BTM_Pix]

28 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

I still have a bunch of manual Nikon glass that would be tempting to mount on a new camera.

Also I have started using the A7rIII & 35mmf/2.8 combo a lot and I can definitely see the potential of small wide angle lenses on FF. 

I'm going to harass you now like I do with anyone who has old manual glass and a Sony mirrorless and beg you to buy the TechArt AF adapter and tell us what its like

 

46 minutes ago, mercer said:

Better yet... they can just revive the IX lenses. 

They were so slow they'd have tortoise tutting and tapping his watch at them.

 

48 minutes ago, mercer said:

The one thing I’ve always liked about Nikon was that I was forced to use their lenses. For a vintage lens fan like myself, it kept my options to minimum. I just shot with my Nikkors... can I really complain?

Nope, they are still performing as well as new ones that would cost you literally 10 times the price.

And are about half the size.

Even if you do have to turn the turny thing yourself to focus them.

[mercer]

22 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'm going to harass you now like I do with anyone who has old manual glass and a Sony mirrorless and beg you to buy the TechArt AF adapter and tell us what its like

 

They were so slow they'd have tortoise tutting and tapping his watch at them.

 

Nope, they are still performing as well as new ones that would cost you literally 10 times the price.

And are about half the size.

Even if you do have to turn the turny thing yourself to focus them.

I saw your samples from the Lenses section of the 105mm... and just as I suspected, they look great.

Idk, I see everybody’s point with a new mount... I just don’t know if I completely agree.

When you see how tiny the D3400 is, I just don’t know if I buy that the old mount would be too big for mirrorless. 

I guess the question for us is, will the F/G lenses be good enough for some sort of PDAF video focus. They seem to work fine for stills.

53 minutes ago, Don Kotlos said:

Haha sorry I don't know why I had felt so strongly about that one. So the comment was mostly self-reflexive. 

And about the mount, I would actually love to see an F mount mirrorless. I still have a bunch of manual Nikon glass that would be tempting to mount on a new camera. But unfortunately companies usually go for the profit. And Nikon can just easily rehouse all their long (>50mm) lenses like Sigma did for the FE line. All the new rumors point to a new Z mount. 

Also I have started using the A7rIII & 35mmf/2.8 combo a lot and I can definitely see the potential of small wide angle lenses on FF. 

I don't know if you have seen some fuji/olympus inspired fake mockups of the new Nikon mirrorless, but I would love to have one of those. Nikon should just steal his designs  

Honestly, I don’t know why I did either. This is one of my problems with forums, sometimes I just enjoy the back and forth. 1. It’s entertaining 2. I enjoy learning through debate. 3. I need a hobby to distract me from my hobby. 

[noone]

I wold expect a new mount and any FF camera to have a F mount adapter ready to go.

I don't give much to it being the "same" old F mount as while yes, the lenses will mount to all the cameras, they don't all work.

Geez, there are still current cameras that wont work at all with the latest E lenses and then all those bodies without a screwdrive motor and all the bodies that can actually be BROKEN using some older lenses!

I wouldn't be worried about Nikon F mount adapters for mirrorless though.     They even had adapters that can auto focus some of those old manual focus Nikon lenses on some Nikon cameras too (1.6x) with a couple of old adapters (similar to the ones for Pentax, Sony and others- there was even one that auto focused Nikon lenses on Minolta/Sony A mount cameras).

Whatever they do, I am sure it will be great but they need to do it soon (as do Canon).

 

[IronFilm]

On 5/4/2018 at 9:14 PM, Aussie Ash said:

Thom Hogan has been saying two entry level mirrorless APS-C bodies in the US $500-$1000  bracket to be announced in the next few months followed by a full frame around US $2,000 four or five months later.D5600 is already due for update perhaps it is

the last of the D5000 series ??

Fingers crossed for a D5600 update with no crop 4K and focus peaking in 4K!