Sony A7 III users - colour as crazy as ever with no consistency between camera, computer, NLE

[Andrew Reid]

Would A7 III owners like to help research into this and report their findings...

First of all find a bright red object, preferably a car in daylight.

Set white balance to auto / ambient priority white.

Set Picture Profile to Gamma HLG and Colour Mode to BT.2020

Black Level -15

Saturation +10

Now test two clips - one with Colour Mode BT.2020 and one with Rec.709 (both with HLG selected in the picture profile). Use HLG not HLG1,2,3, etc.

****

What to do...

1. Report what you see through the finder and how this compares to what you see afterwards...

2. Compare camera screens to what you see on your computer. On a Mac use space-bar to run the clip from Finder straight off the card. Now use VLC player. Report the difference again between these two. On a PC, also describe if there is a difference between your multiple media players.

3. Put the same file into Premiere or whatever NLE you are using. Again report differences - more or less saturation? More or less orange?

****

Here is a report card -

Focus on saturation, contrast and balance between scarett-red and orange-red.

Camera EVF vs LCD

Saturation - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Magenta - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Orange - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Contrast - rate on scale 1-5 for both

Camera LCD vs Computer

Saturation - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Magenta - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Orange - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Contrast - rate on scale 1-5 for both

VLC Player vs Quicktime (MAC OS)

Saturation - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Magenta - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Orange - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Contrast - rate on scale 1-5 for both

Adobe Premiere vs Quicktime or VLC Player (State which)

Saturation - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Magenta - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Orange - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Contrast - rate on scale 1-5 for both

Windows Media Player vs VLC Player (PC ONLY)

Saturation - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Magenta - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Orange - rate on scale 1-5 for both
Contrast - rate on scale 1-5 for both

4. Now run the same test again with HLG profile set as above but Rec.709 instead of BT.2020.

***

My findings:

There are major differences. I'm going to do a blog post with my report card in it and you can read about it there soon.

[Andrew Reid]

Here's a preview of what's going on...

VLC Player and Premiere seem to have same result.

Quicktime Player and Finder Preview have different result.

Camera LCD is in a world of it's own, I'll talk about that later.

VLC on left / Quicktime on right:

This clip is using Rec.709 colour space in HLG. It appears desaturated in Quicktime and correct in VLC Player:

This next clip is using Rec.2020 in HLG::

Behaviour is the opposite. It appears desaturated in VLC Player and more more saturated in Quicktime, which incidentally matches the camera LCD when View Assist is turned on, as if Apple is converting the colour to rec.709 in Quicktime without telling us.

The following clip is using S.Gamut 3 Cine as per my new EOSHD Pro Color settings:

It is a shot through some grass but you can still see the differences especially to red balance.

VLC Player has the punchy, correct colour. Quicktime is desaturated and shifted to orange.

So be very careful when setting up colour on your camera, as what you see might not be what you get.

By the way, Quicktime changes based on what Color Profile you have selected in MAC OS Display Control Panel. Therefore if the display profile and camera colour space are mismatched, you get the wrong colour in Finder, preview, thumbnails and Quicktime Player. VLC and Premiere do not change and seem to maintain the format of the file. This is stupid behaviour by Quicktime because if you record a mixture of clips with different colour spaces, you cannot keep changing your display profile in MAC OS to match each clip (i.e. Rec.709 if you record in 709, or Rec.2020 if you are using Hybrid LOG Gamma)!!

[Deadcode]

Im using High Sierra on Hackintosh and it seems like the VLC player is not using the monitor calibration profile. It's like sRGB Default profile hardcoded...

Quicktime is using the monitor calibration but with a little gamma lift (1.9 gamma maybe?)

You should check your footage in Davinci Resolve. In the Perferences menu try it with "use monitor calibration" (Quicktime look) and try without it (VLC look)

 

Advice 1.0: You should try the following in Davinci: in the color panel add a Color Space transform node and transform your REC2020 to REC709. If it matches to the image in quicktime, then yes, it shows you REC709 version of the footage without permission.

Advice 2.0: upload the out of cam HLG footage to youtube, and check it on your phone. It will shows correct HDR image with P3 Gamut. (you have iPhone X if i remember correctly)

If you watch your REC2020 HLG files on youtube on a regular REC709 display, you will see a REC709 version of it with gentle highlight roll-off. The colors will look like the same as it was in Quicktime.

 

Edit: check youtube in Safari, Chrome on desktop and in app / safari on phone if you want total confusion :D There will be some differences...

So in which app should we trust? :D i trust in the scopes....

 

 

[Andrew Reid]

It is wrong for Quicktime to be applying the monitor profile to the video file.

It should be remapping the video file to your monitor profile, not imposing the display preferences onto the video file, causing the colour to shift.

[Deadcode]

27 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It is wrong for Quicktime to be applying the monitor profile to the video file.

It should be remapping the video file to your monitor profile, not imposing the display preferences onto the video file, causing the colour to shift.

It is remapping the video file to your monitor profile. Playing back REC2020 content as REC709 is the way the HLG implemented to be backward compatible on older displays, so quicktime is actually working as it should be.

VLC has some serious color management problems. Open VLC player play a video file, and while playing change the monitor calibration profile to whatever you want. It does not affect the image in VLC which is a shame... 

[Andrew Reid]

What's even more stupid on Apple's part is that by default FCPX now adjusts the gamma curve of Hybrid LOG Gamma footage so that effectively it is automatically grading your image. You have to go into the settings and set "Show HDR As Raw Values"!

12 minutes ago, Deadcode said:

It is remapping the video file to your monitor profile. Playing back REC2020 content as REC709 is the way the HLG implemented to be backward compatible on older displays, so quicktime is actually working as it should be.

It is not working as it should be because the colours are fucked.

Premiere is fully representative of the original material as I shot it.

Quicktime and FCPX change the gamma curve and colour to convert the Hybrid LOG Gamma material to the final graded HDR image... Which isn't much good if you are using Hybrid LOG Gamma as a flat image profile to manually grade or apply your own LUT.

[kaylee]

a point: i recently ealizedr that full screen finder preview of video does NOT render the same way as quicktime, noticed a lack of detail vs. what i knew was in the file.

again, messed up in finder preview, normal in quicktime. just a heads up

[Andrew Reid]

All good to know.

I am in final stages of tweaking the new EOSHD Pro Color V4 for A7 III and A7R III so anything I can put in the guide to help people is a bonus. It is an absolute must to know these weird software things as you can't use a high dynamic range image straight off the card if your system is going to mess with it.

The new Pro Color will have two profiles and one is based on Hybrid LOG Gamma.

I found the Rec.2020 colour space very problematic as a straight off the card setting, by the way. It has the green-shifted, yellow skin tones by the bucket load which weren't there in Hybrid LOG Gamma. But S-Gamut and Rec.709 colour modes are MUCH nicer on this camera. Anyway, expect the guide and profiles to launch pretty soon.

[Deadcode]

8 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

What's even more stupid on Apple's part is that by default FCPX now adjusts the gamma curve of Hybrid LOG Gamma footage so that effectively it is automatically grading your image. You have to go into the settings and set "Show HDR As Raw Values"!

It is not working as it should be because the colours are fucked.

Premiere is fully representative of the original material as I shot it.

Quicktime and FCPX change the gamma curve and colour to convert the Hybrid LOG Gamma material to the final graded HDR image... Which isn't much good if you are using Hybrid LOG Gamma as a flat image profile to manually grade or apply your own LUT.

Before you are perfectly sure Premiere is showing you the valid colors, upload the graded HLG --> REC709 footage of yours to Youtube and check it on your phone. Your phone is color managed, if it matches to you computer screen, you can trust in your eyes.  

In MacOS Safari/Chrome/Davinci/FCPX all shows different colors to me if im not using the factory default profile for my monitor... so yeah, well done apple... (but i should not cry, im using a hackintosh :P)

[EthanAlexander]

Andrew, I think this has more to do with the P3 display on your iMac than the OS or camera. I've got one and it's been very frustrating because of the inconsistency: Sometimes even inside of FCPX itself, the footage will be displayed differently whether on a timeline or in the browser, even when the project and library are set the same. 

 

Your first example is definitely an instance where the video is not being properly remapped to the display gamut, but it could be because of the mismatch with rec709 which doesn't traditionally go with HLG. So I think what it's doing is treating it like 10 bit footage on a rec709 display with no remapping. (Just like an RGB JPEG displayed on an sRGB display looks washed out.)

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

This clip is using Rec.709 colour space in HLG. It appears desaturated in Quicktime and correct in VLC Player:

 

The second example I think is actually an instance where VLC is the one getting it wrong and preview is getting it right, since 10 bit footage should look really good on a P3 display. I don't think it's converting it to rec709 without telling you:

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

next clip is using Rec.2020 in HLG::

 

I'm not sure though - that's just my take. I find the whole thing frustrating though, I'll tell you that. We've got this incredible 5K display that's capable of displaying insane color and contrast and we're left dealing with unreasonable inconsistency and headache!

[Django]

Nice catch but isn't this more an issue with Mac OS/Quicktime rather than the A7III? i can confirm similar inconsistencies comparing QT & VLC using Fuji/Canon footage.

[Coiii]

Is this related to the P3 color management on the latest iMacs? I saw a lot of people having issues because of the poor color management of MacOS.The thing is that not all the apps are color managed by the system, like Premiere, VLC or DaVinci. Native apps like FCPX or Quicktime are color managed, that's why everyone sees different colors between apps.

If that's the problem, it's a color management issue, not a camera issue.