What we want in the ZCam E2

[sanveer]

Most of us on these forums and almost all Indie Filmmakers (especially those who buy their own gear) are forever asking for features a camera should have or not have.

The ZCam E2, already seems to have a few very impressive list of features (4k @120fps and 13.5 stops of Dynamic Range).

 

What features do you feel it really needs to be able to sell in the truckloads?

I didn't really like the live streaming Ethernet port thing, which except the high speed advantage doesn't seem to offer anything. Also, by the time things are uploaded on YouTube, are already down to way less size than they were shot or edited on. Also, IMHO very high bitrate live streaming may not be a great idea.

1. IMHO since they probably cannot fit in another Card Slot (for SDXC or other cards, apart from the CFast one it already has) maybe a dual usb-c may be a better idea instead of one Ethernet and one USB-C.

2. Perhaps either one or 2 mini XLR ports for sound.

3. A few flavours of Cinema DNG RAW.

Finally, I feel the price seems a little off. If it were priced at $1495, it may seem a lot more attractive.

I am creating a new thread for this, because I feel the ZCam guys are open to listening and want feedback on features filmmakers want on their camera.

[tweak]

If they implement the features talked about on their FB group and deliver it all within a good quality image/codec it will sell in the truckload already.

[newfoundmass]

That's a big if, though. 

I really appreciate their ambition and these kind of companies are honestly what push innovation faster. 

I suppose my biggest issue is CFast being the chosen media. I'd honestly prefer a slightly larger body and SSD over CFast, if they're going to completely forgo SD (which I understand.) CFast just raises the cost of entry, given I've never owned any CFast cameras and don't have any of that media. I do have quite a few SSDs though. 

I feel like that's the issue in general with this camera: you're going to need to invest quite a bit into realizing the full potential of this camera, assuming it can live up to the promises. While that's no different really than what happens when getting into higher end cinema cameras, it's a hard sell given the options out there that provide more of an all in one system even if they don't match the specs and are a bit more pricey, or in the case of the Pocket 4k, cost even less.

Of course, all of this could be far less of an issue if they really hit a home run with this camera. But it's a tough sell, I think. 

[no_connection]

Just put a M.2 slot. It's not like the offload not gonna be fast enough anyway. Maybe a compatible port to interface the PCIe directly. Altohugh I guess USB3 is decent enough.
Granted form factor may be limiting since ssd are usually longer but I don't see CFast or SD being better than for example a 1TB fast ssd. But that 2GB write speed is kinda tempting tho.

[Don Kotlos]

Two media slots? I can't even find one! But I agree an SSD slot or an extension that supports it would be nice. 

A mini XLR would be a great addition as well as a relatively uncompressed codec.

The price seems high only because the new pocket 4K is priced so low...

 

[Cinegain]

Feel it has lost what the E1 was about and that's sort of a shame, really. The E1 was basically an action-like cam. A self-contained device that you'd be able to put in tight spots, easily carry on you as a 2nd camera just in case or be very inconspicuous with. This seems intended more... for tethered operation. But, apparently that's what the market demands. Seen a lot of companies dropping the consumer side of things in favor of industry application.

[tweak]

1 hour ago, newfoundmass said:

That's a big if, though. 

I really appreciate their ambition and these kind of companies are honestly what push innovation faster. 

I suppose my biggest issue is CFast being the chosen media. I'd honestly prefer a slightly larger body and SSD over CFast, if they're going to completely forgo SD (which I understand.) CFast just raises the cost of entry, given I've never owned any CFast cameras and don't have any of that media. I do have quite a few SSDs though. 

I feel like that's the issue in general with this camera: you're going to need to invest quite a bit into realizing the full potential of this camera, assuming it can live up to the promises. While that's no different really than what happens when getting into higher end cinema cameras, it's a hard sell given the options out there that provide more of an all in one system even if they don't match the specs and are a bit more pricey, or in the case of the Pocket 4k, cost even less.

Of course, all of this could be far less of an issue if they really hit a home run with this camera. But it's a tough sell, I think. 

As much of an "if" as anyone else saying they will try and do something for a given price bracket. They already have a decent company and deliver pretty technical products.

You can record straight to SSD via the USB port  .

I don't really see what would be a huge investment? Same as almost any other camera (most people buy external screen and cage even when a camera has one already, I do). Specs should be better than Pocket if they deliver and it's a 4:3 sensor, not 16:9 like the pocket which will please some people more (such as anamorphic shooters).

I doubt it will be a tough sell. If they deliver what's promised it will sell super easy. Time will tell.

1 hour ago, Don Kotlos said:

Two media slots? I can't even find one! But I agree an SSD slot or an extension that supports it would be nice. 

A mini XLR would be a great addition as well as a relatively uncompressed codec.

The price seems high only because the new pocket 4K is priced so low...

 

It has a CFast on one side. You can record to SSD via USB.

They aren't doing built in mini XLRs as it's form is too small, they said they will provide an adapter/add on to mini XLR though.

The pocket 4K isn't the same camera, it's not even delivering the same aspect ratios. Whether or not they use similar sensors (or even the same) really means nothing, a sensor doesn't define a camera, so much goes into the back end.

15 minutes ago, Cinegain said:

Feel it has lost what the E1 was about and that's sort of a shame, really. The E1 was basically an action-like cam. A self-contained device that you'd be able to put in tight spots, easily carry on you as a 2nd camera just in case or be very inconspicuous with. This seems intended more... for tethered operation. But, apparently that's what the market demands. Seen a lot of companies dropping the consumer side of things in favor of industry application.

The E1 was a totally different product for a different price bracket, only similarities between them is really the name. You're right though, they should do an upgrade to the E1 as well as it's a pretty unique form factor for such a camera. I feel however that the E2 if it delivers will be a much bigger money maker than the E1 ever was.

[newfoundmass]

4 hours ago, tweak said:

As much of an "if" as anyone else saying they will try and do something for a given price bracket. They already have a decent company and deliver pretty technical products.

I mean, the E1 retails for around $250 new these days. It shows that they didn't exactly set the world on fire and it had, if I recall, pretty major firmware issues on release. The video was also muddy looking with not very good color science.

4 hours ago, tweak said:

You can record straight to SSD via the USB port  .

That's cool and all, but again I'd prefer recording to SSD without having to use the USB port. 

4 hours ago, tweak said:

I don't really see what would be a huge investment? Same as almost any other camera (most people buy external screen and cage even when a camera has one already, I do). Specs should be better than Pocket if they deliver and it's a 4:3 sensor, not 16:9 like the pocket which will please some people more (such as anamorphic shooters).

Whether we buy cages, external monitors, etc for our cameras we're still able to forgo all of that and shoot beautiful cinematic footage without it. I can take my GH5 out of a bag, put in an affordable SD card, add a mic and lens and be off to the races. Meanwhile you can't even use it as it was intended without costly CFast media ($200 for SanDisk 64 GB) and a monitor ($150+).

The specs can be better than the Pocket 4K but ultimately things like ease of use, color science, etc. are all major factors in why people are far more interested in that, in addition to the low retail price. 

4 hours ago, tweak said:

I doubt it will be a tough sell. If they deliver what's promised it will sell super easy. Time will tell.

It already is a tough sell, though. People are interested and are watching to see how things develop, but it's not like we're seeing a lot of people clamoring for this camera outside of the Facebook group. I haven't heard much chatter about it outside of the initial discussion the week of NAB, even though I think it's supposed to begin shipping in the next two or so months. 

4 hours ago, tweak said:

They aren't doing built in mini XLRs as it's form is too small, they said they will provide an adapter/add on to mini XLR though.

And this is why the form factor itself is silly. They want to position it as a cinema camera but they have arbitrarily decided that it NEEDS to be so small that it can't include tech that would add minimal size that would be worth it for added features / functionality. 

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

And this is why the form factor itself is silly. They want to position it as a cinema camera but they have arbitrarily decided that it NEEDS to be so small that it can't include tech that would add minimal size that would be worth it for added features / functionality

I agree. Is this camera meant to be extra small or functional?

[kye]

4 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

And this is why the form factor itself is silly. They want to position it as a cinema camera but they have arbitrarily decided that it NEEDS to be so small that it can't include tech that would add minimal size that would be worth it for added features / functionality. 

I see your point, but the counter-argument is flexibility.  Specifically, the flexibility that comes from modularity.

Since John Brawley kindly shared the BM Micro Cinema Camera / BM Video Assist rig he uses handheld it got me thinking about cameras from a more modular perspective.  If they added an audio interface then it would be easier, but it would also be another point where people might not like the choice they made - was it good enough? was it too big?  is it now too heavy for drone usage?  what if you don't record audio in-camera?

It's flexibility vs the efficiency of including everything.

[tweak]

@newfoundmass They produce other cameras besides the E1   and you're right I've never heard of anyone releasing cameras with issues... cough cough.
Straight to SSD would be ideal but that isn't in the scope of it's size. You can take GH5 out and shoot 120fps 4K possibly in Prores and Raw? No.
These are ideally totally different products for different markets, comparing it to what you think is a good camera (a dslr) and writing it off for not being such is naive, especially when the thing doesn't even exist yet.
It's not even on sale... how is it "already a tough sell" hahaha. I'm sure they will sell just fine if they deliver.

I think people have the wrong idea about what this camera is supposed to be. As far as I can tell from designer comments it's focus is on multi camera shoots and live streaming, it's not designed primarily to compete as a DSLR although can be rigged out to be more of a cine camera. It's something similar to a BMMCC, which as far as I'm aware sold quite well, thus I don't see the reason for the stigma towards this new design which has many upgrades over a BMMCC (if delivered). I'm just glad someone else is giving it a go and trying to give the market amazing specs at a realistic price, even if they don't deliver everything I'm glad someone is actually trying.

[newfoundmass]

6 hours ago, kye said:

I see your point, but the counter-argument is flexibility.  Specifically, the flexibility that comes from modularity.

Since John Brawley kindly shared the BM Micro Cinema Camera / BM Video Assist rig he uses handheld it got me thinking about cameras from a more modular perspective.  If they added an audio interface then it would be easier, but it would also be another point where people might not like the choice they made - was it good enough? was it too big?  is it now too heavy for drone usage?  what if you don't record audio in-camera?

It's flexibility vs the efficiency of including everything.

But that's the thing: they can do all of that while maintaining a small form factor. Really, how much larger would the camera have to be if instead of 3.5mm it had mini XLR, etc.? Again, to arbitrarily handicap it to offer lower quality connections / features because it absolutely has to be this tiny brain just seems silly even if they offer modules, etc. 

3 hours ago, tweak said:

@newfoundmass They produce other cameras besides the E1   and you're right I've never heard of anyone releasing cameras with issues... cough cough.
Straight to SSD would be ideal but that isn't in the scope of it's size. You can take GH5 out and shoot 120fps 4K possibly in Prores and Raw? No.
These are ideally totally different products for different markets, comparing it to what you think is a good camera (a dslr) and writing it off for not being such is naive, especially when the thing doesn't even exist yet.
It's not even on sale... how is it "already a tough sell" hahaha. I'm sure they will sell just fine if they deliver.

I think people have the wrong idea about what this camera is supposed to be. As far as I can tell from designer comments it's focus is on multi camera shoots and live streaming, it's not designed primarily to compete as a DSLR although can be rigged out to be more of a cine camera. It's something similar to a BMMCC, which as far as I'm aware sold quite well, thus I don't see the reason for the stigma towards this new design which has many upgrades over a BMMCC (if delivered). I'm just glad someone else is giving it a go and trying to give the market amazing specs at a realistic price, even if they don't deliver everything I'm glad someone is actually trying.

But their most significant release was, in fact, the E1. I get being excited, and I appreciate they're even trying, but again, you seem to be giving them the benefit of the doubt and are dismissive of virtually all criticisms of the camera, criticisms that I think are pretty valid. 

That, by your own words, people have the wrong idea about what the camera is / is trying to be again shows how hard of a sell this all is, because Z-Cam has done a pretty poor job at explaining that. Going to their website, none of this is explained. It just has specs and a price. And the specs are great, but they mean very little if they don't deliver in other ways. 

Again, I appreciate your excitement, but going into a thread titled "What we want in the ZCam E2" and explaining away valid thoughts and wants if kinda silly. What then are we supposed to talk about in this thread?

[tweak]

Their most significant release isn't E1 at all... seems like you have it/them all pretty figured out, you should build a camera .
They have explained (and talked about) why the things you ask for aren't possible (at least for the initial product) in their Facebook questions/answers already, I'm just relaying their information, I'm not "explaining away" anything.

[Cinegain]

Kinda like Tesla. :P They made the Roadster based on a Lotus to grab some spotlights and attention. Z Cam made the E1 and launched it through crowdfunding. Now that they're established they're mainly going after the real bread and butter, not so much the fun stuff.

[newfoundmass]

None of the VR cameras they've released have gotten the attention of the E1. To pretend otherwise is to be argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. 

I'm sure though that you're right and it'll be critically acclaimed and sell like hot cakes, just like the E1 and their VR cameras, which outside of the initial fluff pieces covering their launch and include virtually no critical analysis, reviews (despite being called reviews on the Z-Cam site) received very little media and user attention. How can it not? Look at those specs! . 

[sanveer]

I read a lot of reviews of the Z Cam E1, and many users were more than satisfied after the various firmware updates and after the price cut. But, considering it was a product by a small little startup, they seemed to have resolved a lot of the issues users had when the product was released. 

I too feel the Z Cam Z2 could have included a screen and some (more) ports and a SD Card slot. Also, ProRes and RAW. But it does include H264 and H265, and if Sony and Panasonic's implementation of codecs is any indication, than one won't really be missing ProRes (though we could do with RAW).

It also seems to have wifi, and I am guessing if it has an App that's even close to  @BTM_Pix quality of implementation, it could be a runaway success. Or better still, @BTM_Pix  makes a controller for the ZCam E2. That would be a great collaboration.

 

[tweak]

@newfoundmass I never said it would be "critically acclaimed" haha, you sound like a fool, or a bad troll ?.

[newfoundmass]

At $249 on B&H the E1 in 2018 is actually a bit of a steal if you need a really small 4K camera, as like you said the firmware updates greatly improved the camera. When looking at it in that price range, the muddy image and not great color become less of an issue. I know at least one vlogger recently started using it as a webcam. 

 

[tweak]

18 minutes ago, sanveer said:

I too feel the Z Cam Z2 could have included a screen and some (more) ports and a SD Card slot. Also, ProRes and RAW. But it does include H264 and H265, and if Sony and Panasonic's implementation of codecs is any indication, than one won't really be missing ProRes (though we could do with RAW)

 

Not many of these types of camera include a screen, but it would be nice. CFast isn't a bad solution given the data rates needed, especially if they include ProRes and Raw as they have mentioned that they are trying to.

[BTM_Pix]

25 minutes ago, sanveer said:

It also seems to have wifi, and I am guessing if it has an App that's even close to  @BTM_Pix quality of implementation, it could be a runaway success. Or better still, @BTM_Pix  makes a controller for the ZCam E2. That would be a great collaboration.

 

I'm presuming it will be the same protocol as the Z-Cam so it is actually pretty comprehensive in terms of what can be controlled. 

Its implemented in much the same way as the Sony so porting to my current controller would be a quick job.

I'd need a donor camera though to test it and it will be behind Sony and BM in the queue for the port but as I say it wouldn't take long to do.