The impact of 5D Mark III raw and what does Vincent Laforet think of it?

[Halycon]

I know there are a lot of egos involved in the creative world but even by that standard there are some amazingly 'bitchy' comments coming out here. I loved the less financially empowered one :-D

 

I make a living in the creative world (have been for 20 years)...and anything that is an improvement on what you were using before is worth looking at. 5D, C300, BMCC it really doesn't matter because we're all trying to do it better for less (money or time). You wouldn't be even on this blog if that wasn't true.

 

The really smart ones in this industry keep an open mind, look at the developments and explore the options (while still making money doing paid work).

 

This firmware is less than a week old so even the skeptics among us would have to say it's early days with a long way to run. And yes it's a development in beta phase (not pro ready) but to those saying they wouldn't use it for pro work?...I don't think anyone is suggesting they should, though I am sure there will be the pioneers among us that will tempt fate...but of those, it is quite often 'Qui audet adipiscitur' (and no that doesn't mean 'if I don't agree with you I piss on you' but simply 'who dares wins').

[jlev23]

I know there are a lot of egos involved in the creative world but even by that standard there are some amazingly 'bitchy' comments coming out here. I loved the less financially empowered one :-D

 

I make a living in the creative world (have been for 20 years)...and anything that is an improvement on what you were using before is worth looking at. 5D, C300, BMCC it really doesn't matter because we're all trying to do it better for less (money or time). You wouldn't be even on this blog if that wasn't true.

 

The really smart ones in this industry keep an open mind, look at the developments and explore the options (while still making money doing paid work).

 

This firmware is less than a week old so even the skeptics among us would have to say it's early days with a long way to run. And yes it's a development in beta phase (not pro ready) but to those saying they wouldn't use it for pro work?...I don't think anyone is suggesting they should, though I am sure there will be the pioneers among us that will tempt fate...but of those, it is quite often 'Qui audet adipiscitur' (and no that doesn't mean 'if I don't agree with you I piss on you' but simply 'who dares wins').

i give it a month before a director asks me if i can shoot RAW with my 5D, it all starts there!

[Andrew Reid]

Looks like the 'Real Filmmakers' have arrived *sigh*

[Halycon]

Anyone that says this isn't exciting is not being honest...it's amazing and worth reporting (and supporting). I think I've said this 3 times on this site now Andrew...great work! :-) 

 

 

"This was a great week. It is the first time we’ve seen this kind of moving image from a full frame sized sensor in raw. A pristine 2K 14bit image that’s like a 24fps digital film negative or a digital scan of VistaVision".

[Leica50mm]

Well, you cannot shoot raw on any vista vision sized sensor in the world besides the 5Diii.
It is unique . No other camera can do it. I don't care if it's "pro" or not .
It's a special tool. It will look differently than any other camera,
People will find a way to make it work to get that "look".
I wouldn't shoot everything on it, but for certain things it's killer.
If you have shot something that looks better than what this guy shot on a 5dii
I will eat my hat : https://vimeo.com/8646177. This was a high profile national spot that got prime time play in the us.
Watch that an imagine it shot with the raw hack . This is why it's a big deal.
Thanks,
Tim

[Halycon]

...and the fact that it has created so much discussion and polarisation means that this really is huge news and a breakthrough and sadly that means 'scary' to some people, especially if it threatens them in anyway.

 

So expect the flak and wear the jacket :-D and keep the discussion going.

 

"News is what somebody somewhere wants to suppress; all the rest is advertising". Lord Northcliffe

[peederj]

Looks like the 'Real Filmmakers' have arrived *sigh*

 

...or left *facepalm*

 

Hilarious suggestion that the Dominant Order is Threatened by this Game-Changer that must be Put Down At Once for the Love Of All That Is Good And Holy. A Canonic Conspiracy to oppress the lowly pixelpeeper at all costs.

 

And as for "those who dare win," I understand the cadavers up at the summit of Everest are more bother than they're worth bringing down for a proper burial. Which is what a director will make of you if their project is screwed up by the camera in your hands even if it was their idea to shoot that way.

 

Anyway to matters at hand. How will the 5D3 RAW work its way into a practical production? I would think the size of the sensor and the high dynamic range is going to be good for landscapes and architectural/establishing shots that need to be done in realtime. DSLRs are already used for timelapse for these reasons, and Luke's "Bodie" example aptly showed the earlier ML HDR video trick doing the same. Those are low-stress, short shots generally, you aren't tying up the talent etc. if you have to re-shoot because your card skipped or died. Shallow DoF is good for the hackneyed rack focus effect if any are still using that, and the 5D3 is a very good portrait camera up at 85mm or so, so having a B cam do closeups with it makes sense, something to cut away to, that you don't need to worry about as it's not the master shot.

 

But more interesting is if they implement an onboard codec like MJPEG, what resolutions they could send out to the fast CF cards. I think 4k is a near certainty in this case. I mean, if they can crop 1:1 pixel they do have native res RAW access. So why can't they stream out 4k MJPEGS?

 

You know, Canon may have told ML they could do the RAW thing as a way of killing off BMD. Which it certainly will (who would have bought one of those before this anyway?). But Canon has made clear they don't want the 1DX's turned into 1DC's. I can't see anything else in the way of 4K on the 5D3, and it will be at least as good as 1DC video (which is limited by the same CF interface). And no nothing will burn up, there is already an optimized JPEG compressor onboard, and the stills are limited by shutter/mirror speed and SD compatibility which this won't involve.

 

So there's your next mission. Get 4K for us. For those who value resolution over color accuracy (I doubt 4K RAW could be done in UDMA 7, but maybe). That will not only kill off BMC it will kill off Scarlet.

[peederj]

Or actually wait. Native res on the 5D3 is 5760 x 3840.

 

Slay the Dragon.  :o

[Halycon]

Great stuff Phil! :-D

[jgharding]

The arguing does get tiresome, it's just another great option. Now anyone who wants to shoot can find a way to make it look good for cheap, excellent if they handle the hassle of bleeding-edge raw tech.

 

The last person who wanted consultation on equipment purchase, my advice to them after considering all factors (including turnaround time, staff training and expertise, portability and ease of use etc.) was to get a C100, which they took glady. The RAW hack for 5D iii could not be further from right for them.

 

For others, it's great. I'll try it at some point, but I don't own the camera, so not now. At the moment I'm planning out the next short, and I'll probably do it on a 600D, it's good enough. Or maybe on an Epic as some friends are buying one and it's great to use (if a bit big), but it's not a dealbreaker. I can use both, they both have pros and cons.

 

More options is only a good thing I think. This means in future I can shoot stuff on Epic, then get RAW footage with a lightweight rig off a 5Diii. I don't what can make people so angry about an amazing, completely free  feature. Ego wars are no fun at all, if I respected the people who made the most money or were the most pro, I'd respect bankers, or the people who made the hundreds of pap Hollywood films that get churned out each year. In fact, I'm not interested in either.

 

Creative freedom plus astonishing quality is, however a dream. I have to pinch myself to think that three years ago I had no way to shoot with a large sensor. It was too expensive. Now they're everywhere. Now I can get RAW as added bonus for free (I am a donater BTW)? You gotta be kidding me. I just can't bring myself to complain about that. I refuse to be that spoiled!!!

[mtheory]

A message for the anti-RAW brigade:
 

You are a TV guys. C100/C300 are hands down the best indie TV camera in the world. Most TV pros moved to C100/C300. 

 

We are FILM guys. 5D/7D are hands down the best indie FILM cameras in the world. Most indie FILM pros stayed with DSLR as evident by about 70% of submissions in most indie film festivals still being DSLRs today.

 

The RAW update makes our beloved 5D an even better CINEMA tool.

 

We shouldn't be having these arguments, because we live in different worlds.

 

FILM and TV.

 

No beef. No drama.

[sir_danish]

I can only endorse the outrage (and enthusiasm at the same time) of the majority on this blog. Some of us are "painters", you know? Some of us do not need efficient codecs, nor do some of us need all those features, a "real" camera offers. Some of us, like myself, are painters, and this ML update finally gives me the color palette I need to create lovely paintings. A picture is worth a thousand words and now I have the right tool to not only create beautyful pictures, but also bring them into the dimension of time. Without spoken words, you know? And without having to spend a pile of money on bulky machines, that need countless accessories to actually work. I´m a supporter of the intuitive approach and this is the way I get my work done and earn my money with. Intuition and observation skills. A Scarlet (for example) doesn´t serve my approach. A DSLR does very well and a raw shooting DSLR does even better!

 

I´m very impressed by the (graded) raw footage of the 5D. These are moving paintings! But it seems to me, no one ever talks about that aspect of "film" making. "Efficiency! Storage! XLR! That´s what we have to care about!"

 

Aren´t some of you upset, because affordable and uncomplicated raw shooting tools could have been in our hands for years now, but they weren´t, because some money-hungry bastards wanted (and still want) to sell us extremely overpriced toys with "efficient 8-bit codecs"?

[peederj]

First of all, they are called "Cinema EOS" cameras not "TV EOS." With "Cinema Lock" for log gamma shooting. They are better in every way to DSLRs for shooting films at least before the RAW hack and still in most ways after it.

 

Also, 1000x CF cards have only been available a little over a year. So the speed of memory writing needed to capture 1080p RAW or as I predict 4K or even ~6K MJPEG simply wasn't there "for years." Canon didn't put a speed governor on the CF slot. So ML could come in and open Pandora's box.

 

I'm happy about the RAW hack and will also be happy when they get compressed 4K+ running. I own a 5D3 and have shots that those modes may be best used for. I also think my C100 + Ninja 2 is going to be a better option for filmmaking overall and for very little additional cost compared to kitting out a RAW-shooting 5D3 with dual system audio, NDs, side and top handle, peaking field monitor/EVF, and oh a huge stack of very fast CF cards. The C100 likely shoots better low-light, higher resolution and sharpness, and probably has more dynamic range at ISO 850 than the 5D3 RAW has, even though that will only have 8 bit fidelity in a log gamma as opposed to 14 bit linear on the 5D3 RAW. It also has one of the best built-in IR filters in the business, I almost never have the fan running in typical use, it's gorgeously weighted and balanced for hand-held shooting and is no worse than the 5D3 for mounting on a steadicam. Batteries last for several hours and change without dismounting the camera.

 

It's a lovely design and it's a lovely image. 5d3 RAW is a decent design and a lovely image too. But starting from zero (and I know many of you already have DSLR rigs you've sunk large money into) I really think most of you would prefer the C100 + Ninja 2 for about the same cost. I think many of you will prefer the 5D3 1.2.1 firmware + Ninja 2 over the ML hack, also at about the same cost (vs. all those fast CF cards and drives to offload to). Sacrilegious to suggest that here on the site that celebrates hacks above all else, but I really think that's true. And I have no interest in saying so other than my preference to keep things real.

[jlev23]

First of all, they are called "Cinema EOS" cameras not "TV EOS." With "Cinema Lock" for log gamma shooting. They are better in every way to DSLRs for shooting films at least before the RAW hack and still in most ways after it.

 

Also, 1000x CF cards have only been available a little over a year. So the speed of memory writing needed to capture 1080p RAW or as I predict 4K or even ~6K MJPEG simply wasn't there "for years." Canon didn't put a speed governor on the CF slot. So ML could come in and open Pandora's box.

 

I'm happy about the RAW hack and will also be happy when they get compressed 4K+ running. I own a 5D3 and have shots that those modes may be best used for. I also think my C100 + Ninja 2 is going to be a better option for filmmaking overall and for very little additional cost compared to kitting out a RAW-shooting 5D3 with dual system audio, NDs, side and top handle, peaking field monitor/EVF, and oh a huge stack of very fast CF cards. The C100 likely shoots better low-light, higher resolution and sharpness, and probably has more dynamic range at ISO 850 than the 5D3 RAW has, even though that will only have 8 bit fidelity in a log gamma as opposed to 14 bit linear on the 5D3 RAW. It also has one of the best built-in IR filters in the business, I almost never have the fan running in typical use, it's gorgeously weighted and balanced for hand-held shooting and is no worse than the 5D3 for mounting on a steadicam. Batteries last for several hours and change without dismounting the camera.

 

It's a lovely design and it's a lovely image. 5d3 RAW is a decent design and a lovely image too. But starting from zero (and I know many of you already have DSLR rigs you've sunk large money into) I really think most of you would prefer the C100 + Ninja 2 for about the same cost. I think many of you will prefer the 5D3 1.2.1 firmware + Ninja 2 over the ML hack, also at about the same cost (vs. all those fast CF cards and drives to offload to). Sacrilegious to suggest that here on the site that celebrates hacks above all else, but I really think that's true. And I have no interest in saying so other than my preference to keep things real.

with the new firmware and clean hdmi out, my assistants are complaining about a lag in the video now which makes pulling focus a little harder, any word if that is really a consequence of the new firmware upgrade, or has it really been there all the ime, ive never noticed it until the last shoot.

[mtheory]

First of all, they are called "Cinema EOS" cameras not "TV EOS." 

 

Then why the hell noone uses them to shoot CINEMA except C500, - which incidentally is only used because it's RAW? :D They are "TV EOS" cameras indeed, for you TVmakers. 

[Andrew Reid]

I can only endorse the outrage (and enthusiasm at the same time) of the majority on this blog. Some of us are "painters", you know? Some of us do not need efficient codecs, nor do some of us need all those features, a "real" camera offers. Some of us, like myself, are painters, and this ML update finally gives me the color palette I need to create lovely paintings.

 

WELL PUT sir. Sod broadcast ready efficiency I have just found my paintbrush.

 

And before another troll says that I'm implying there's no art in commercial work and TV, no... I'm not. There. Simple!

[Andrew Reid]

Mtheory is right.

 

Why do you think Alexa has ProRes and Raw? Becuase it is used in both TV and cinema.

 

Raw is a long standing cinema standard, it isn't something that has just come around with Blackmagic.

[Andrew Reid]

Also, 1000x CF cards have only been available a little over a year. So the speed of memory writing needed to capture 1080p RAW or as I predict 4K or even ~6K MJPEG simply wasn't there "for years." Canon didn't put a speed governor on the CF slot. So ML could come in and open Pandora's box.

 

Wrong. Canon had a UDMA 6 130MB/s CF card slot as far back as the 50D! That camera is looking good to shoot raw with Magic Lantern and it has a larger buffer than the later 600D.

 

Red had some super fast CF cards years ago.

 

Even with a slow CF card, with enough buffer memory the camera could easily have done 30 second raw video clips, then stop whilst offloading to the card. Apparently Canon didn't see the market or the demand for it, a bit like they didn't see the whole DSLR video thing coming with the 5D Mark II. Remember that camera was lunched with no manual control and no 24p.

[Andrew Reid]

The arguing does get tiresome, it's just another great option. Now anyone who wants to shoot can find a way to make it look good for cheap, excellent if they handle the hassle of bleeding-edge raw tech.

 

This is also a good point, raw an option - like 50mm or 85mm, one is not 'better' than the other, it's a creative choice.

 

If we're talking about outright image prowess though, you've gotta hand it to the 5D Mark III raw over the C300. It's just beautiful. Not that the C300 is bad, but this is a whole new level in terms of cinematic feel, full frame rendering of lenses, dynamic range and resolution. 1280 lines in anamorphic for a start. I've upscaled my footage to 3K and played it on a 2.5K Dell - fabulous. Not a hint of mushy detail even at that level.

[peederj]

Well if you really want to shoot big-screen features with camera systems under $10K, I think most will prefer 4K+ resolution in MJPEG over 1080p RAW. A 4K MJPEG with a log gamma is going to look pretty damn good even with the compression and limited color accuracy...compare 5D3 stills JPEGs with 1080p stills. Then add Neat Video and a LUT and you can go ahead and crop and recompose and stabilize in post like the big boys and still have awesome resolution for screens over 10 meters. Especially if they can do the full 5760 x 3840.

 

I really can't see anything stopping ML from giving us 1DC or even better quality with the 5D3. ML is open source so someone could do it and it would be impossible for Canon to stamp out. Essentially just run native res JPEG stills out the CF port with the mirror and shutter locked up in live view mode. The camera has to be able to do it, Canon just didn't enable it to be done 25 times per second for less than $10K.

 

That will be the next big story. 6K for $3K available and working at your local camera shop. And an easier workflow for that than the 1080p RAW.