DJI Mavic Pro II

[Robert Collins]

6 minutes ago, AaronChicago said:

That's kind of a bummer but isn't the 1" sensor 4x bigger than the Mavic Pros? 1.3 crop isn't too bad.

Well the maths sort of works like this.

1.5x crop = 1.5 x 1.5x = 2.25x

20mp / 2.25 = 8.9mp which about equals 4k (1:1)

...So 4x bigger sensor is nice but if you throw away half the sensor in video either through 'pixel binning' or 'cropping' it is an improvement but it aint great.....

[Luke Mason]

1 hour ago, Robert Collins said:

Are you sure 4k FOV is 'pixel binned' as opposed to 'downrezzed'? Not questioning whether you are right or wrong - I simply dont know. It doesnt make a lot of sense in video terms to produce a 1 inch 20mp sensor and then 'pixel bin' half the pixels for video. But this maybe a choice that DJI have made... (I mean now you are  effectively telling me that there is no full sensor read out for video at all - you have a choice between 'pixel binning' or 'cropping'. Not the end of the world but we are getting to the stage that we dont really have a true 1" sensor for video in the first place.)

Pixel binning is one of the methods of "downres", for example RX100M5/6 use supersampling to downres 5.7K to 4K, it's full sensor readout which is the best quality but computationally demanding. Other downres methods include line-skipping.

With all of the processing going on in a small drone, supersampling 5.7K doesn't seem practical due to power/thermal constraints. Ideally you'd want a 1" sensor with less pixel to strike a balance between photo and video, but the Sony 1" 20MP one is the only model DJI has access to.

[Robert Collins]

11 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:

With all of the processing going on in a small drone, supersampling 5.7K doesn't seem practical due to power/thermal constraints. Ideally you'd want a 1" sensor with less pixel to strike a balance between photo and video, but the Sony 1" 20MP one is the only model DJI has access to.

My thinking was that DJI was offering a choice between '4k supersampled 5.7k' 8 bit and cropped '4k 10 bit'. But you may well be right and that limited sensor options means that there isnt really a full read out of the sensor in the first place.

[Cliff Totten]

There is a good chance this is a line skipping or pixel binning process. It's hard to say for sure though. We know that Sony has created a high tech "full pixel readout" for their fantastic scaling engines but DJI does not buy Sony SOC's. DJI buys Sony sensors and uses Ambarella image processors on Phantom and Mavics. 

The original Mavic Pro used a dinosaur Ambarella A9 processor that has the absolute worst temporal noise reduction algorithm. It SEVERELY scrubbed the life out of everything below middle grey it's temporal analysis artifacts caused a "pulse" every 15 frames. Shadows are 90% washed, scrubbed and flattened SEVERELY! (a lot of people blamed 60mbp/s h.264 when it was really that disgusting noise reduction circuit to blame)  Total junk chip that dates back to the GoPro 3. The Phantom 4 Pro uses the Ambarella H1 and it's pretty good. The Mavic Air used the Ambarella H1 and doesn't suffer that same noise reduction Hell that the Mavic Pro does and gives you 100mbp/s too.

Today we have the Ambarella H2, H22 and H3 chips which are far more powerful than the H1 now. It's going to be interesting to see what video processor that DJI used for these new Mavics. The Ambarella H3 can do 4k at 120fps and 8K at 30p!

It's very possible that DJI is making these motherboard designs usable for the new Phantom 5 too. This allows them to buy H3 or H2 chips, do all the programming work together and only activate features the need for each model and leave others hidden. This saves lots of programming man hours.

To see this HORRIBLE Ambarella A9 vs Ambarella H1 noise reduction lab analysis comparison, check out my video here. I think it will answer a lot of people's questions about DJI Mavic image quality problems. It's NOT 60mbps vs 100mbp/s like we have all though for years.

https://youtu.be/5WDc9PKCDm0?t=1m30s

CT

p.s....DJI is using H.265 HEVC but they are only using "main" profile and NOT "high" profile. This means it is only using a fraction of the HEVC tool sets and calculations that are available to the full HEVC/H.265 specification. So,...the "50% gains" over H.264/AVC are reduced even further. This is a "light" or "partial" HEVC profile designed to keep calculations per second lower and easier.

 

[Robert Collins]

13 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

There is a good chance this is a line skipping or pixel binning process. It's hard to say for sure though. We know that Sony has created a high tech "full pixel readout" for their fantastic scaling engines but DJI does not buy Sony SOC's. DJI buys Sony sensors and uses Ambarella image processors on Phantom and Mavics. 

The original Mavic Pro used a dinosaur Ambarella A9 processor that has the absolute worst temporal noise reduction algorithm. It SEVERELY scrubbed the life out of everything below middle grey it's temporal analysts artifacts caused a "pulse" every 15 frames. (a lot of people blamed 60mbp/s h.264 when it was really that disgusting noise reduction circuit to blame)  Total junk chip that dates back to the GoPro 3. The Phantom 4 Pro uses the Ambarella H1 and it's pretty good. The Mavic Air used the Ambarella H1 and doesn't suffer that same noise reduction Hell that the Mavic Pro does and gives you 100mbp/s too.

Today we have the Ambarella H2, H22 and H3 chips which are far more powerful than the H1 now. It's going to be interesting to see what video processor that DJI used for these new Mavics. The Ambarella H3 can do 4k at 120fps and 8K at 30p!

It's very possible that DJI is making these motherboard designs usable for the new Phantom 5 too. This allows them to buy H3 or H2 chips, do all the programming work together and only activate features the need for each model and leave others hidden. This saves lots of programming man hours.

To see this HORRIBLE Ambarella A9 vs Ambarella H1 noise reduction lab analysis comparison, check out my video here. I think it will answer a lot of people's questions about DJI Mavic image quality problems.

https://youtu.be/5WDc9PKCDm0?t=1m30s

CT

 

Very interesting (although knowledge well above my pay grade.)

And I can certainly feel your pain with the Mavic Pro and its noise reduction circuit.

(BTW I am not trying to rag on DJI here (I think I can be classed as a fanboy)). I have pre-ordered the Mavic Pro 2. I just want to know exactly what I have ordered and cut the through the spec sheet bullshit.

[Luke Mason]

13 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

There is a good chance this is a line skipping or pixel binning process. It's hard to say for sure though. We know that Sony has created a high tech "full pixel readout" for their fantastic scaling engines but DJI does not buy Sony SOC's. DJI buys Sony sensors and uses Ambarella image processors on Phantom and Mavics. 

The original Mavic Pro used a dinosaur Ambarella A9 processor that has the absolute worst temporal noise reduction algorithm. It SEVERELY scrubbed the life out of everything below middle grey it's temporal analysis artifacts caused a "pulse" every 15 frames. Shadows are 90% washed, scrubbed and flattened SEVERELY! (a lot of people blamed 60mbp/s h.264 when it was really that disgusting noise reduction circuit to blame)  Total junk chip that dates back to the GoPro 3. The Phantom 4 Pro uses the Ambarella H1 and it's pretty good. The Mavic Air used the Ambarella H1 and doesn't suffer that same noise reduction Hell that the Mavic Pro does and gives you 100mbp/s too.

Today we have the Ambarella H2, H22 and H3 chips which are far more powerful than the H1 now. It's going to be interesting to see what video processor that DJI used for these new Mavics. The Ambarella H3 can do 4k at 120fps and 8K at 30p!

It's very possible that DJI is making these motherboard designs usable for the new Phantom 5 too. This allows them to buy H3 or H2 chips, do all the programming work together and only activate features the need for each model and leave others hidden. This saves lots of programming man hours.

To see this HORRIBLE Ambarella A9 vs Ambarella H1 noise reduction lab analysis comparison, check out my video here. I think it will answer a lot of people's questions about DJI Mavic image quality problems. It's NOT 60mbps vs 100mbp/s like we have all though for years.

https://youtu.be/5WDc9PKCDm0?t=1m30s

CT

p.s....DJI is using H.265 HEVC but they are only using "main" profile and NOT "high" profile. This means it is only using a fraction of the HEVC tool sets and calculations that are available to the full HEVC/H.265 specification. So,...the "50% gains" over H.264/AVC are reduced even further. This is a "light" or "partial" HEVC profile designed to keep calculations per second lower and easier.

 

I believe Mavic 2 Pro still uses Ambarella H1 chip, which limits H.265 to main profile. Also the Sony sensor IMX183CQJ doesn't support full sensor readout for video.

[Cliff Totten]

12 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Very interesting (although knowledge well above my pay grade.)

And I can certainly feel your pain with the Mavic Pro and its noise reduction circuit.

(BTW I am not trying to rag on DJI here (I think I can be classed as a fanboy)). I have pre-ordered the Mavic Pro 2. I just want to know exactly what I have ordered and cut the through the spec sheet bullshit.

I ordered both Mavics (Zoom and Pro) but I can tell you one thing; 

This DJI claim of 13 stops for the 1/2.3 sensor and 14 stops for the 1inch-type....is a GROSS marketing lie. That is the biggest whopper that DJI had ever told. LOL!!

Not even the A7S-II, FS5, FS7 or GH5-S sensors get "14 stops". (The FS7 gets close)

CT

[wolf33d]

9 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Surprised which one he is going to put in his bag the most. Both damn impressive. Codec still a little weak. You can it it on the tight pans. But for the money, man gets the job done.

2 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

That's kind of a bummer but isn't the 1" sensor 4x bigger than the Mavic Pros? 1.3 crop isn't too bad.

 

Codec little weak? Come on you are watching a YouTube video man....

aaron, 40mm lens equivalent is bad for a landscape drone. Let’s just hope the Full FOV is good.

[webrunner5]

17 minutes ago, wolf33d said:

Codec little weak? Come on you are watching a YouTube video man....

 

That is true.. but what, I am suppose to go to the guys house and watch it on his Monitor LoL? ?

[Luke Mason]

30 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

I ordered both Mavics (Zoom and Pro) but I can tell you one thing; 

This DJI claim of 13 stops for the 1/2.3 sensor and 14 stops for the 1inch-type....is a GROSS marketing lie. That is the biggest whopper that DJI had ever told. LOL!!

Not even the A7S-II, FS5, FS7 or GH5-S sensors get "14 stops". (The FS7 gets close)

CT

That quote is based on HDR mode for stills photo.

[wolf33d]

4 minutes ago, Luke Mason said:

That quote is based on HDR mode for stills photo.

Exactly lol. The only marketing shit now is the full sensor avoidance when sides only work in Tripod mode and active track... which I both never use

[HockeyFan12]

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

There is a good chance this is a line skipping or pixel binning process. It's hard to say for sure though. We know that Sony has created a high tech "full pixel readout" for their fantastic scaling engines but DJI does not buy Sony SOC's. DJI buys Sony sensors and uses Ambarella image processors on Phantom and Mavics. 

The original Mavic Pro used a dinosaur Ambarella A9 processor that has the absolute worst temporal noise reduction algorithm. It SEVERELY scrubbed the life out of everything below middle grey it's temporal analysis artifacts caused a "pulse" every 15 frames. Shadows are 90% washed, scrubbed and flattened SEVERELY! (a lot of people blamed 60mbp/s h.264 when it was really that disgusting noise reduction circuit to blame)  Total junk chip that dates back to the GoPro 3. The Phantom 4 Pro uses the Ambarella H1 and it's pretty good. The Mavic Air used the Ambarella H1 and doesn't suffer that same noise reduction Hell that the Mavic Pro does and gives you 100mbp/s too.

Today we have the Ambarella H2, H22 and H3 chips which are far more powerful than the H1 now. It's going to be interesting to see what video processor that DJI used for these new Mavics. The Ambarella H3 can do 4k at 120fps and 8K at 30p!

It's very possible that DJI is making these motherboard designs usable for the new Phantom 5 too. This allows them to buy H3 or H2 chips, do all the programming work together and only activate features the need for each model and leave others hidden. This saves lots of programming man hours.

To see this HORRIBLE Ambarella A9 vs Ambarella H1 noise reduction lab analysis comparison, check out my video here. I think it will answer a lot of people's questions about DJI Mavic image quality problems. It's NOT 60mbps vs 100mbp/s like we have all though for years.

https://youtu.be/5WDc9PKCDm0?t=1m30s

CT

p.s....DJI is using H.265 HEVC but they are only using "main" profile and NOT "high" profile. This means it is only using a fraction of the HEVC tool sets and calculations that are available to the full HEVC/H.265 specification. So,...the "50% gains" over H.264/AVC are reduced even further. This is a "light" or "partial" HEVC profile designed to keep calculations per second lower and easier.

 

Very interesting! 

Forgive me if someone has already posted this, but if these are real, I think they're extremely impressive:

https://www.tomstechtime.com/mavicpro2

The FOV does look a little narrower than I'd expect, so the HQ full readout mode seems to be a crop to me. The image has the same tonality and lack of sharpening and mosquito noise that you'd see in cinema cameras and higher end drones, however there's apparently still some in-camera NR and accompanying loss of high frequency detail. Some might prefer this, though, and it doesn't seem too severe.

One thing that confuses me is the Mavic Pro 2 seems to shoot QHD up to 30p and the Phantom 4 Pro shoots cinema 4k up to 60p... that's a BIG difference in processing power in favor of the Phantom. 

I'm disappointed that there's no cinema 4k (4096X2160) mode, not just because it would cut well with cinema cameras at native resolution, but also because the wider FOV would be appreciated most in the instances where you're shooting 17X9: otherwise you're upscaling and then cropping even more. But based on the image above (if it's really from the Mavic Pro 2), I'd still take this over anything else. Just wish there were a cinema 4k 24p mode...   Maybe in a software update? Seems like an odd omission. 

[Kisaha]

 

13 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

One thing that confuses me is the Mavic Pro 2 seems to shoot QHD up to 30p and the Phantom 4 Pro shoots cinema 4k up to 60p... that's a BIG difference in processing power in favor of the Phantom.

I'm disappointed that there's no cinema 4k (4096X2160) mode, not just because it would cut well with cinema cameras at native resolution, but also because the wider FOV would be appreciated most in the instances where you're shooting 17X9. Based on the image above (if it's really from the Mavic Pro 2), I'd still take this over anything else. Just wish there were a cinema 4k 24p mode...   Maybe in a software update?

Imagine if it was capable! It would be the drone to rule them all.

It will be sufficient for very low budget stuff, we still use the original Mavic for some of those, for anything significantly more demanding, my approach is - hire someone with the appropriate equipment and knowledge.

The next Phantom will be absolutely fantastic, really Inspire quality and features, but then the Inspire will be out of this world, with an unheard - for the quality and features - price.

That's evolution, I hated the Mavic's image, the 2 will do.

Now I want a 2 with a zoom camera!

[wolf33d]

 

10 bit grading possibilities seem great. Also in the menu he checks 10 bit and I do not see why you would need to be in cropped mode for that. 

 

53 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

 

The FOV does look a little narrower than I'd expect, so the HQ full readout mode seems to be a crop to me.

 

One thing that confuses me is the Mavic Pro 2 seems to shoot QHD up to 30p and the Phantom 4 Pro shoots cinema 4k up to 60p... that's a BIG difference in processing power in favor of the Phantom. 

 

 

- It is official that the HQ mode is cropped 

- Not processing power, just DJI crippling the Mavic 2 to give a reason to P4 Pro to exists. 

[Cliff Totten]

Yeah,.....but!  We get 100Mbp/s for 8bit H.264. We then add 40+ times more color overhead....and NOT add even ONE single megabit of bitrate to cover that overhead.

We can say, "Oh, but we are using H.265 HEVC and because it's more efficient, that will cover the bitrate loss."  Not really, their H.265 HEVC is a MAIN profile and not a HIGH profile, so it's only a "partial" H.265 HEVC implementation.

To make matters worse, there are videos out today that compare H.264 AVC at 100Mbp/s vs. H.265 HEVC at 100Mbp/s on the Phantom 4 Pro. It's being shown that the H.264 AVC shows LESS banding than HEVC when stretched.

So,..."IF" H.264 at 8bit, high profile is ALREADY better than H.265, main profile in 8bit.....what makes us think that H.265 HEVC will be any better after DJI throws 40+ times the color space at it???

DJI makes GREAT aircraft and gimbals...but I honestly dont believe that DJI has people that understand video compression very well.

 

CT

[HockeyFan12]

1 hour ago, Cliff Totten said:

Yeah,.....but!  We get 100Mbp/s for 8bit H.264. We then add 40+ times more color overhead....and NOT add even ONE single megabit of bitrate to cover that overhead.

We can say, "Oh, but we are using H.265 HEVC and because it's more efficient, that will cover the bitrate loss."  Not really, their H.265 HEVC is a MAIN profile and not a HIGH profile, so it's only a "partial" H.265 HEVC implementation.

To make matters worse, there are videos out today that compare H.264 AVC at 100Mbp/s vs. H.265 HEVC at 100Mbp/s on the Phantom 4 Pro. It's being shown that the H.264 AVC shows LESS banding than HEVC when stretched.

So,..."IF" H.264 at 8bit, high profile is ALREADY better than H.265, main profile in 8bit.....what makes us think that H.265 HEVC will be any better after DJI throws 40+ times the color space at it???

DJI makes GREAT aircraft and gimbals...but I honestly dont believe that DJI has people that understand video compression very well.

 

CT

Did you check out the sample videos I posted a link to? There's a large overexposed blue sky area in one clip and there's next to no banding (the first frame has some macro blocking but otherwise pretty good). Imo the image looks great, impressively close to the Inspire. The readout obviously makes a difference. If those sample clips are real, this will be a fantastic drone in good light.

It is, however, pretty soft.

[sanveer]

5 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

Well the maths sort of works like this.

1.5x crop = 1.5 x 1.5x = 2.25x

20mp / 2.25 = 8.9mp which about equals 4k (1:1)

...So 4x bigger sensor is nice but if you throw away half the sensor in video either through 'pixel binning' or 'cropping' it is an improvement but it aint great.....

 I am not sure your formula makes any sense. 

 

1 hour ago, wolf33d said:

 

10 bit grading possibilities seem great. Also in the menu he checks 10 bit and I do not see why you would need to be in cropped mode for that. 

 

- It is official that the HQ mode is cropped 

- Not processing power, just DJI crippling the Mavic 2 to give a reason to P4 Pro to exists. 

There is no official reason for this. It's quite likely that there is a reason for this beyond having a market for the next Phantom. If DJI wanted to solely keep a market for the Phantom, the need for a Hasselblad collaboration would be low.

 

10 minutes ago, HockeyFan12 said:

Did you check out the sample videos I posted a link to? There's a large overexposed blue sky area in one clip and there's next to no banding (the first frame has some macro blocking but otherwise pretty good). Imo the image looks great, impressively close to the Inspire. The readout obviously makes a difference. If those sample clips are real, this will be a fantastic drone in good light.

It is, however, pretty soft.

Whatever few videos I saw, I found the image pretty amazing too. There is no artificial sharpening. That is something I noticed on the high res pics on the Hasselblad site too.

[sanveer]

These are pics from the M2P. Flickr seems to ruined the quality of the pics. The Hasselblad site (https://www.hasselblad.com/collaborations/dji-mavic-2-pro/)

seems to represent the quality way more precisely, without too much downsizing in terms of quality due to file size.

Read the blog post too. He makes some interesting points, especially with regard to the Hasselblad collaboration.

https://blog.mingthein.com/2018/08/24/2018-dji-mavic-2-pro-review/#more-17580

 

 

[Cliff Totten]

I bought a Mavic 2-Zoom AND Mavic 2-Pro 30 seconds after it hit their web site..

I also own a Phantom 4 Pro+ V2.0 today. My goal was to sell my Phantom 4 Pro+ V2.0 and keep the Mavic II Pro as my main 1 inch aircraft. (Keep the Zoom too as backup) However, this issue with the Mavic II Pro's "HQ" mode and "FOV" mode has me concerned.

Questions:

Is the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 doing a full 16x9 pixel readout and scaling to 4k? (it looks pretty damn good today)

Is the Mavic Pro-II now pixel binning or line skipping it it's "full" 16x9 readout? (NOT the same scan as the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0)

Is the Mavic Pro-II cropping and using a 1:1 readout and calling THIS mode "HQ"?? WTF?

IS the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 actually using a higher quality full pixel read out than the Mavic-II Pro??

This is one topic that really does concern me. I might not sell my P4P-2.0 if it's sensor scan is better than the Mavic-II Pro!

DAMNIT!

[sanveer]

42 minutes ago, Cliff Totten said:

I bought a Mavic 2-Zoom AND Mavic 2-Pro 30 seconds after it hit their web site..

I also own a Phantom 4 Pro+ V2.0 today. My goal was to sell my Phantom 4 Pro+ V2.0 and keep the Mavic II Pro as my main 1 inch aircraft. (Keep the Zoom too as backup) However, this issue with the Mavic II Pro's "HQ" mode and "FOV" mode has me concerned.

Questions:

Is the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 doing a full 16x9 pixel readout and scaling to 4k? (it looks pretty damn good today)

Is the Mavic Pro-II now pixel binning or line skipping it it's "full" 16x9 readout? (NOT the same scan as the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0)

Is the Mavic Pro-II cropping and using a 1:1 readout and calling THIS mode "HQ"?? WTF?

IS the Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 actually using a higher quality full pixel read out than the Mavic-II Pro??

This is one topic that really does concern me. I might not sell my P4P-2.0 if it's sensor scan is better than the Mavic-II Pro!

DAMNIT!

The scanner scan, sometimes is of no real consequence of the algorithms are not proportionally correct.

Since you have bought the Mavic 2 Pro, and the Phantom 4 Pro, you would be the right guy to actually compare the 2 side by side and check which is better and sharper. Don't bother about the Crop that much. See if the transitions are good and if there is banding, and which seems better to the eyes and for grading and post work.

Also you could compare the photo quality between the two, and check which seems to have more detail, more accurate colours and less digital sharpening. 

I could be wrong, but I am betting my money on the Mavic 2 Pro.