Nikon full frame mirrorless camera specs

[webrunner5]

12 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

I do think switchable nd filters are a sort of holy grail tech for cameras (but I doubt we will see in Canon mirrorless,)

I actually think a solution like this is pretty elegant - a lens with a built in switchable nd

https://dronedj.com/2017/10/12/dji-16mm-lens/

I really think there is enough room in it for ND's in a Canon version. It would have to sort of look like the new SD Sigma's do. They came out with a Mirrorless body that uses the same Sigma mount. Why would Canon not do that? Man having the same mount, Big time Deal! No new lenses to buy, and ND's to boot, hell yes!

Maybe Nikon is doing what I suggest. That might put a dent in some Sony, Canon sales!

 

[squig]

55 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

I agree with your thoughts. But I don't see Nikon coming up with nothing new that will be amazing. I see them at best have a Mirrorless replacement for the time being for the D750, and the D850.

The rumor certainly suggests they'll be the mirrorless equivalent of the D750 and D850, and Nikon knows (finally) they have to counter the A7 S and R line. But just ripping out the mirror boxes and hacking off the mount won't cut it, they have to bring something more to the table, especially with the A7sIII looming. They're gonna need something like DPAF, global shutter, raw or lossless 10bit log recording, and the kind of professional menu options Magic Lantern and Panasonic have been doing for years like: anamorphic mode. Stellar dynamic range and low light performance won't be enough alone to increase market share. What's the bet they do something dumb like 8k video because it sounds impressive to Joe six pack.

[webrunner5]

6 minutes ago, squig said:

The rumor certainly suggests they'll be the mirrorless equivalent of the D750 and D850, and Nikon knows (finally) they have to counter the A7 S and R line. But just ripping out the mirror boxes and hacking off the mount won't cut it, they have to bring something more to the table, especially with the A7sIII looming. They're gonna need something like DPAF, global shutter, raw or lossless 10bit log recording, and the kind of professional menu options Magic Lantern and Panasonic have been doing for years like: anamorphic mode. Stellar dynamic range and low light performance won't be enough alone to increase market share.

Wow I don't see all that happening with either Nikon or Canon on their first tries in FF Mirrorless territory. I see both trying to be more safe than ballsy. But you have a good point, why buy them if all they are is pretty much the same old shit in a new form factor!

[Robert Collins]

14 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

They came out with a Mirrorless body that uses the same Sigma mount. Why would Canon not do that? Man having the same mount, Big time Deal! No new lenses to buy, and ND's to boot, hell yes!

Strictly speaking, retaining the EF mount doesnt remove the need for new lenses (although it does remove the need for an adapter.)

As mirrorless uses a different focusing system, mirrorless lenses need different focusing motors - hence the Canon STM line of lenses for EF-M. Simply building in the adapter wont work efficiently (or Sigma adding an adapter to their lenses for E mount rather than redesigning the lens.)

[webrunner5]

8 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

Strictly speaking, retaining the EF mount doesnt remove the need for new lenses (although it does remove the need for an adapter.)

As mirrorless uses a different focusing system, mirrorless lenses need different focusing motors - hence the Canon STM line of lenses for EF-M. Simply building in the adapter wont work efficiently (or Sigma adding an adapter to their lenses for E mount rather than redesigning the lens.)

I know of no new lenses Sigma made for the SD cameras??  Sure they came out with the Art lenses, but that was new for all cameras at the time. And you can use any of the old ones as far as I know? Now i know Sigma cameras are known for fast AF, but I know the system does work.

But I can see there is some limitations with the some of the older lenses. Super close AF, maybe not so hot on some of them.

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/cameras/popups/sa-mount_list/

[Robert Collins]

1 minute ago, webrunner5 said:

I know of no new lenses Sigma made for the SD cameras?? And you can use any of the old ones as far as I know? Now i know Sigma cameras are known for fast AF, but I know the system does work.

I was refering to the Sigma Art line of primes for the e-mount.

https://www.sigmaphoto.com/article/art-primes-for-sony-e-mount-announcement

Essentially, instead of redesigning the lenses they tacked on an mc11 adapter to their dslr lenses. They are new but the reviews are not great (Jon Pais tried one, found the video af sluggish/unreliable and sent it back.)

[webrunner5]

34 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

I was refering to the Sigma Art line of primes for the e-mount.

https://www.sigmaphoto.com/article/art-primes-for-sony-e-mount-announcement

Essentially, instead of redesigning the lenses they tacked on an mc11 adapter to their dslr lenses. They are new but the reviews are not great (Jon Pais tried one, found the video af sluggish/unreliable and sent it back.)

From what I have read Only the Sigma lenses work well on the mc11 adapter. Native EF lenses are not so hot on it. But the price right! I have never used the Art lenses so no clue how good they work. Jon does know lenses I realize that. I didn't realize the mc11 adapter is built into them on non native mounts??  They don't look any longer than any other lens I have ever seen. I know they make a different mc11 adapter for each type of mount,  ergo, Sony, Canon, etc..

[kye]

Great posts.

On the side for Nikon hitting it out of the park we have:

• it's do or die,
• they don't have a cinema line to protect,
• a new mount grants freedom from technical compatibility baggage,
• they already have a huge user base,
• they talk to customers all the time,
• they have runs on the board with colour science and other stand-out aspects,
• etc.

On the negative side we have:

• History.

It sure is exciting though.  As someone who is going to be in the market for a new camera system around xmas this year, there's a bunch of cool stuff to choose from: A7III, XH1, Pocket 2, and promises of Canon mirrorless FF, and Nikon mirrorless FF!  And I don't list the GH5 or GH5S because every camera I listed has a killer advantage over those (or promises one) that is directly relevant to how I shoot.

It's going to be an action packed 6 months!

[squig]

49 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

Wow I don't see all that happening with either Nikon or Canon on their first tries in FF Mirrorless territory. I see both trying to be more safe than ballsy. But you have a good point, why buy them if all they are is pretty much the same old shit in a new form factor!

Nikon did market a D850 filmmakers kit, so they're not completely comatose. But throwing together a few accessories because your competitors are kicking your arse is lame. How's playing it safe working out for ya Nikon?

5 minutes ago, kye said:

On the negative side we have:

Complacency

[kye]

18 minutes ago, squig said:

Complacency

Yeah, we're both right, a History of Complacency! ???

[squig]

I don't come to this discussion as a hater, quite the opposite: my first SLR was a Nikon FM2. My first DSLR was a D90, I tested a D5200, and I had a full set of ai primes, still have a 180, 105, 300, and 16mm fisheye. If the Nikonhacker raw hack succeeded I would've dumped the 5D Mk3 for a D750.

"Nikon, we made a lens for NASA once, buy our shit" just won't cut it anymore.

[Robert Collins]

If you look at the 'Nikon' page at dpreview....

https://***URL removed***/products/nikon/cameras?subcategoryId=cameras&page=1

...you will find that Nikon have released just 3 cameras in the past 18 months and their latest release (D850) was announced virtually a year ago.

And in the previous 2 years before that they released 27 cameras!!

So Nikon appears to be a digital camera company run by a bunch of execs that dont really believe in the future of digital cameras.

While they might be right I dont think they are. CIPA numbers show that the ILC market has shrunk only about 5% since 2014 (in value.)

And the demographics (at least for Japan) show an increasing number of under 30s and women buying ILCs.

[IronFilm]

20 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

..you will find that Nikon have released just 3 cameras in the past 18 months and their latest release (D850) was announced virtually a year ago.

And in the previous 2 years before that they released 27 cameras!!

Nikon is a relatively small company, so while they probably are tinkering away at another DSLR to come out "some time in the future", everyone's guesses as to why their releases have slowed down is because they're devoting all their resources instead to R&D for mirrorless so that they can release something really kick ass here. As it is do or die time for Nikon when they attempt the leap into the mirrorless age. 

20 minutes ago, Robert Collins said:

And in the previous 2 years before that they released 27 cameras!!

19 of the cameras in 2015/2016 are P&S types of cameras. 
No wonder they slowed down with those types....

Although I still wish they hadn't killed the new DL line up! That would have three more new ones in this category. 

 

oh wow, holy cr*p, that link reminded me that the D750 came out in 2014??? Now I'm feeling very old! I still want a D750 one day. 
And my D5200 is from 2012, I'm such an old fart. 

 

[BTM_Pix]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And on average the D5 owner is more likely to want to stick with DSLRs for another generation than other camera body owners, as the D5 is a specialized niche DSLR camera for sports photographers and the like. 

I am and I don't. 

But yes we are niche bordering on endangered species. 

[squig]

13 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

oh wow, holy cr*p, that link reminded me that the D750 came out in 2014??? Now I'm feeling very old! I still want a D750 one day. 

And my D5200 is from 2012, I'm such an old fart.

We'll be the only guys in 2028 with mirror boxes.

The evolution of digital cameras reminds me of the evolution of digital synthesizers. In the 70's synths were fat sounding analog beasts (I still have my Roland Jupiter 8), covered in knobs and sliders, built to create. In the 80's digital synths lost the fatness and the knobs, you spent more time reading the manual than you did creating. Now 30 years later the big synth manufacturers have finally figured out what people want and it's all analog or analog modelling covered with knobs.

The same thing happened with digital cameras, aperture rings and ISO dials disappeared, and you had to study the manual just to do what used to be simple things, cameras stopped being fun. Fuji figured this out, and alas Fuji cameras have ISO dials, aperture rings, very analog flim-like profiles, and short flange distance so you can adapt lots of vintage glass.

Corporate marketing people are clueless.

[BTM_Pix]

3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

 

Now the Only good rumor I have heard is Canon might, and I mean might, on their top end Mirrorless, have ND filters built into an existing EF mount on it AKA like Sigma does mount wise for their new SD Mirrorless cameras. They don't have ND filters in them but there sure as hell is room for them in that snout! That would be a BIG deal if they do it! It might not be the most beautiful Mirrorless on the market but think of a FF Canon Mirrorless needing no EF lens adapter and ND's in it. Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner!

I have an SD Quattro and the snout is not only big enough to contain a variable ND but the chicken dinner as well.

[kye]

2 hours ago, Robert Collins said:

So Nikon appears to be a digital camera company run by a bunch of execs that dont really believe in the future of digital cameras.

While they might be right I dont think they are. CIPA numbers show that the ILC market has shrunk only about 5% since 2014 (in value.)

If you want to understand what the Execs at Nikon night be thinking, you must get into the Japanese mind-set, one aspect of which is long-term thinking the likes of which the West has never seen.

There was a famous example where someone asked a Japanese philosopher what the impacts of The Great Fire of London was, and his answer (over 300 years after the event) was "it's too soon to tell".  Yes, that's a ridiculous example, but it's indicative of the culture.

So, if you are the head of a corporation that's over 100 years old, in a culture known for 100-year business plans, you're not restricting yourself to stats from the last three years!!

[Lovund]

The Full Frame Nikon Mirrorless is being launched in Photokina this year.

[Aussie Ash]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I agree, but Sony has a huge headstart.

Thus Nikon has to ballpark match Sony at price/performance this year (with their two cameras plus a few lenses, and of course an EXCELLENT adapter for legacy lenses) and then strongly follow up in 2019 as well (with a DX mirrorless, plus more lenses for the new mount). 

That is the minimum Nikon needs to do. 

I know several retired chaps that have had enough of lugging around bulky Full frame Nikon and lenses and jumped ship to Fujifilm APS-C.

Nikon and Canon both have small light DSLRs as well but seem to have treated APS-C as the ugly step sister undeserving of a proper lens

lineup.

Fujifilm have a huge headstart too-the fullest range of proper APS-C lenses -14 primes,10 zooms and two cine zooms.

The X-T3 is supposed to be announced at photokina with new sensor and processor, Nikon will loose more of their existing customers if they

continue to allocate minimal development to their DX systems .

[Robert Collins]

36 minutes ago, kye said:

If you want to understand what the Execs at Nikon night be thinking, you must get into the Japanese mind-set, one aspect of which is long-term thinking the likes of which the West has never seen.

There was a famous example where someone asked a Japanese philosopher what the impacts of The Great Fire of London was, and his answer (over 300 years after the event) was "it's too soon to tell".  Yes, that's a ridiculous example, but it's indicative of the culture.

So, if you are the head of a corporation that's over 100 years old, in a culture known for 100-year business plans, you're not restricting yourself to stats from the last three years!!

Well Keynes famously wrote that 'in the long run, we are all dead'

And I dont buy the whole Japanese corporate philosophy and as this chart of the Nikkei shows the index is still 40% off its highs - 29 years ago !!! .

Japanese companies are heroically creative at destroying shareholder value just look at Sony, Panasonic and Olympus over the last 30 years. Nikon and Canon are by comparison to them and most Japanese companies extremely well managed.

But personally I wouldnt trust any 'camera company' that told me they could see '10 years into the future' let alone '100.'