Canon 5D IV HDMI like 1DC / 1DXII 1080p 4:2:2 output

[MdB]

I've been contemplating a 1DC a lot recently and nearly about to pull the trigger. One of the main things that interests me is the high quality 1080p output when in APS-H 4K mode. I don't want nor care about 4K. 4K has only ever meant that cheaper cameras (or ones with limited processing) can produce much better 2K, but in a long winded way. What I understand is that the 1DC offers 4K downsampled to 1080p in camera (somewhat) like the C100/300 and offers some of the nicest 1080p around in this way. 

Ive been reading around and apparently the 1DX II does a similar thing. To me this gets rid of the codec issues, top quality ProRes 1080p is a-ok with me. 

Then I read that the 5D IV uses the same 'system' for its 1080p HDMI output, but haven't read any comments on its quality in this regard. The 5D IV would seem to offer the C-Log of the 1DC and the DPAF of the 1DXII. Obviously it has that bigger crop, but that's ok with me working with S35 mostly anyway and having the lenses I want to support that, less so 1.2-ish APS-H (still have FF lenses also)  

Can anyone comment on the HDMI output on the 5D IV with downsampling that 4K feed to a sweet clean 1080p out? Might sway me towards the 5D IV and take advantage of the DPAF. 

[webrunner5]

20 minutes ago, MdB said:

I've been contemplating a 1DC a lot recently and nearly about to pull the trigger. One of the main things that interests me is the high quality 1080p output when in APS-H 4K mode. I don't want nor care about 4K. 4K has only ever meant that cheaper cameras (or ones with limited processing) can produce much better 2K, but in a long winded way. What I understand is that the 1DC offers 4K downsampled to 1080p in camera (somewhat) like the C100/300 and offers some of the nicest 1080p around in this way. 

Ive been reading around and apparently the 1DX II does a similar thing. To me this gets rid of the codec issues, top quality ProRes 1080p is a-ok with me. 

Then I read that the 5D IV uses the same 'system' for its 1080p HDMI output, but haven't read any comments on its quality in this regard. The 5D IV would seem to offer the C-Log of the 1DC and the DPAF of the 1DXII. Obviously it has that bigger crop, but that's ok with me working with S35 mostly anyway and having the lenses I want to support that, less so 1.2-ish APS-H (still have FF lenses also)  

Can anyone comment on the HDMI output on the 5D IV with downsampling that 4K feed to a sweet clean 1080p out? Might sway me towards the 5D IV and take advantage of the DPAF. 

"1080p will also use this same 3K mode, down-sampled to 1080 for improved perceived resolution." From below. So not a true 4K downsample. But yeah I would go the 5D mk IV route just for the DPAF if nothing else. 1DC has a 4k Crop also, 1.3, and a Codec that would choke a horse, as the 5D mk IV has, MJPEG codec at 500/Mbps.

https://petapixel.com/2017/03/29/canon-5d-mark-iv-firmware-update-reduce-4k-crop-1-74x-1-27x/

[MdB]

8 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

"1080p will also use this same 3K mode, down-sampled to 1080 for improved perceived resolution." From below. So not a true 4K downsample. But yeah I would go the 5D mk IV route just for the DPAF if nothing else. 1DC has a 4k Crop also, 1.3, and a Codec that would choke a horse, as the 5D mk IV has, MJPEG codec at 500/Mbps.

https://petapixel.com/2017/03/29/canon-5d-mark-iv-firmware-update-reduce-4k-crop-1-74x-1-27x/

Thanks for that, but that ended up being a false rumour and talks about different features than what I'm asking about. Specifically that 3K full sensor readout is kind of bunk, I'm talking about the way Canon downsampled to 1080p through the HDMI when it is reading full 4K off the crop sensor. Because they can't output 4K but can't subsample the sensor, you get a really nice downsampled 1080p that is not something they really like to advertise. Thanks for your time though.  

I suspect it does the same as those other two models (due to the way Canon do things), but haven't seen anyone specifically mention it. 

[webrunner5]

28 minutes ago, MdB said:

Thanks for that, but that ended up being a false rumour and talks about different features than what I'm asking about. Specifically that 3K full sensor readout is kind of bunk, I'm talking about the way Canon downsampled to 1080p through the HDMI when it is reading full 4K off the crop sensor. Because they can't output 4K but can't subsample the sensor, you get a really nice downsampled 1080p that is not something they really like to advertise. Thanks for your time though.  

I suspect it does the same as those other two models (due to the way Canon do things), but haven't seen anyone specifically mention it. 

Since the Camera has a crop I don't think you can have full 4K. That is why it probably really is 3k. I Really doubt it is doing a full sensor readout.

But there is  amazingly little info on the damn thing on the web. So my guess is about as good as yours. There are Very few cameras that can read the whole sensor, and Sony is one of them. I Really doubt Canon is doing it, as Sony just really started doing it lately starting with the A9. That is why the now ones have a hell of a lot less rolling shutter.

[MdB]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Since the Camera has a crop I don't think you can have full 4K. That is why it probably really is 3k. I Really doubt it is doing a full sensor readout.

But there is  amazingly little info on the damn thing on the web. So my guess is about as good as yours. There are Very few cameras that can read the whole sensor, and Sony is one of them. I Really doubt Canon is doing it, as Sony just really started doing it lately starting with the A9. That is why the now ones have a hell of a lot less rolling shutter.

Well yes, that is why they have a crop mode in 4K, Canon aren't yet capable of downsampling on the fly 5K-8K in camera to 4K. So they run a windowed (crop) mode of the pixels needed from the centre of the sensor for 1:1 pixel readout. However the sensor can't do a 1:1 readout AND a pixel binned readout (for the 1080p HDMI) at the same time. So the camera has to downsample the 4K to go through the HDMI. Obviously when the camera is set (and therefore the sensor readout) for full frame 1080p the sensor pixel binning still applies. 

The C100 and C300 did the same thing (sort of) from their native 4K sensors (but only 1080p cameras), so Canon have been doing this downsampling for some time. This produces absolutely stunningly good 1080p without having to futz around capturing overstuffed 4K in camera and then downsampling in post, but should produce far better 1080p than the in camera options. 

But as you say, seems to be stuff-all info on the topic. Cinema 5D says in their 'review': 

"In-camera realtime down convert from 4K to full HD."

Newsshooter says: 

"The other big bit of news is that external recording is limited to HD in uncompressed YCbCr 4:2:2 8-bit. In essence, this is the same system as the flagship 1DX mkII (but recording to CF, not CFast 2.0 cards). But because of the 5D mkIV’s higher pixel count sensor, the crop factor is much greater (1.74x compared to approximately 1.3x)."

But I have yet to find anyone talk about this actual output, what does it look like? The 5D IV is the only model of the three that offers both C-Log and DPAF. Yes it has a bigger crop, that I can deal with. 

Sony started doing full sensor readout and downsampling to 4K in the RX100 and A6300, now A9 and A73. The A7S did it from the start, but like the cinema cameras was specifically designed to do so (1:1 pixel readout for the format). 

[MdB]

Surely someone owns the 5D IV and can chime in? 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, MdB said:

Surely someone owns the 5D IV and can chime in? 

Was not many takers on here. ?

[BTM_Pix]

This test at least shows that someone has done it and shows some comparison to it's internal recording.

It's primarily a test to show the 5D Mark IV and C100 being cut together on a 1080p timeline but to determine the best method he generates the 1080p from the 5D Mark IV via a downsample of internal 4K recording , an internal 1080p recording and an external 1080p to an Atomos.

Anything labelled as 422 LT on the video is the externally recorded version.

 

[MdB]

11 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

This test at least shows that someone has done it and shows some comparison to it's internal recording.

It's primarily a test to show the 5D Mark IV and C100 being cut together on a 1080p timeline but to determine the best method he generates the 1080p from the 5D Mark IV via a downsample of internal 4K recording , an internal 1080p recording and an external 1080p to an Atomos.

Anything labelled as 422 LT on the video is the externally recorded version.

 

Thank you, I had seen this video some time ago but had forgotten about it. 

I will have to rewatch carefully to make sure, but I believe the 1080p versions are all captured in full frame 1080p mode. Rather than capturing 1080p externally whilst in the 4K mode as per the 1DC and 1DX II. It is in this way it is doing full 1:1 4K and downsampling on the way out to lovely 1080p (just like the C100/300 series do) that I'm particularly interested in, rather than the pixel binned 1080p off the full sensor. 

4 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Was not many takers on here. ?

Yeah I see. To me it's potentially a better compliment to a C500 than a 1DX II or 1DC is (or really anything else). 

[BTM_Pix]

Yeah, I think you're right that he didn't use it in the 4K mode when recording externally.

Looking at the comments on another test subsequent test he did, he actually did end up buying a couple of 5D Mark IVs and he seems very responsive to questions so it might be worth dropping him a comment on there and asking him if you don't get an answer here.

He has a 1DX Mark2 as well so he should be able to shed the most light on it.

[Dave Maze]

I own a 1DC and have used the HDMI out before in 4k mode and it really does look great. Better than a C100 for sure and its APS-H instead of S35 so you get a little more room with your lenses. 

I will say however, if you either convert all your footage to ProRes, or you edit on an iPad Pro......the 4K MJPG can be dealt with. 

By the way, an iPad Pro can play 4k MJPG files like its nothing in LumaFusion

[Django]

 first time i'm hearing about a 4K downsampled 1080p output via HDMI on these Canon DSLR models. 

that's pretty interesting as i'm thinking of picking up a 5DIV as a b-cam to my C100 (and soon to be upgraded C200).

but as we all know typical "Canon HD" is soft as hell, and the 4K on the 5DIV has a huge crop. this would be a great workaround for getting usable b-roll footage in FF.

[MdB]

5 hours ago, DaveAltizer said:

I own a 1DC and have used the HDMI out before in 4k mode and it really does look great. Better than a C100 for sure and its APS-H instead of S35 so you get a little more room with your lenses. 

I will say however, if you either convert all your footage to ProRes, or you edit on an iPad Pro......the 4K MJPG can be dealt with. 

By the way, an iPad Pro can play 4k MJPG files like its nothing in LumaFusion

That's what I hear about the 1DC and why I've been nearly pulling the trigger. The C100 already has excellent 1080p so improved over that is very appealing, going to say a BM video assist (or Ninja V when they roll out). 

Shooting (and packing) crop lenses for a C100/300/500 though and then having APS-H instead of S35 crop is slightly annoying though. Plus it lacks DPAF in the 5D IV. So if the latter had the same great 1080p out in 4K crop mode I think would make it the winner for me. 

6 minutes ago, Django said:

 first time i'm hearing about a 4K downsampled 1080p output via HDMI on these Canon DSLR models. 

that's pretty interesting as i'm thinking of picking up a 5DIV as a b-cam to my C100 (and soon to be upgraded C200).

but as we all know typical "Canon HD" is soft as hell, and the 4K on the 5DIV has a huge crop. this would be a great workaround for getting usable b-roll footage in FF.

This downsampled 1080p only works in the cropped 4K modes, not in full frame where the output is typical Canon DSLR. But That is exactly why I want it. High quality 1080p is all I need. The crop matches quite well with C100/200/300/500 anyway. 

4K MJPEG is fine for some tasks, but this would overcome most of the limitations of that camera if true. 

[Django]

15 minutes ago, MdB said:

 

This downsampled 1080p only works in the cropped 4K modes, not in full frame where the output is typical Canon DSLR. But That is exactly why I want it. High quality 1080p is all I need. The crop matches quite well with C100/200/300/500 anyway. 

 4K MJPEG is fine for some tasks, but this would overcome most of the limitations of that camera if true. 

 

oh i agree, if true this is really great news and would probably seal the deal for me on the 5D4 which i've been going back & forth on.. but are you sure that when shooting in 4K (1.74x crop) the 1080p HDMI output is also putting out a cropped image? that would make sense as far as the downsampling but i'm asking because on some other cameras like my Fuji XT2 that also has a 1.7x crop when shooting in 4K, the HDMI outputs non cropped 1080p. Different manufacturer of course but since there is no official info on this matter.. would be nice to get confirmation.

[mercer]

Have you tried contacting Canon official support. This seems like a pretty basic question that could be answered if asked as simply as possible. 

[webrunner5]

There must have been 27 people in the whole world that has bought a Canon 5D mk IV, as there is hardly Any news about it, or threads, anything! It is the worse thing I have ever tried to research it seems. No real life info other than for Photos, and I am sure it is good doing that.

Nothing current at all, not even on You Tube.It is like it has vanished from the face of the earth! This camera seems like a total flop on Canon's part, just like the 6D mk II. ?

[521photo]

Well I must be #28!???

But I was in a similar position a few months ago. Needed a 4K capable camera for a film and a body that could also handle pro photo use for my photography biz, as upgrade to the 5D2.  I needed something familiar.  Looked seriously at the 1Dc but ultimately went with the 5D4. No regrets although I was concerned with the crop in 4K. I shot a film and have used it on several photo shoots and can say that it capable of producing an exceptional image, video and stills. A lot of the negatives online, have been positives in my experience. The giant file size, is easy to edit in FCPX and can be pushed around for colour. I finished my film in no small part due to the incredible DPAF. Seriously, it was a lifesaver! I don't really care about spec sheets. Been shooting long enough to know that the only thing that really matters is the image quality. And I don't really care if the file sizes are too big or the crop, etc, etc. 

[mercer]

@521photo would love to hear more about your film and any BTS info on how the 5D4 worked. I may have a few opportunities coming up and I may invest in either a C100 mk1, 5D4 or see what’s what with the new Canon mirrorless. So any info you can share would be great. 

[521photo]

Happy to share any useful info. Like you, I was looking everywhere for people's experience with the 5D4. There's a very talented Cinematographer/DOP  who has several music/model videos on YouTube, where he uses the 1Dc and 5D4 cut together. I found it difficult to tell them apart in the final edit. And in the comments section, people asked which he preferred or would buy if he had to make a choice and his response was to go with the 5D4.... 

As for my own experience.....I realized that I needed a hybrid. Was going to go with the Sony Full Frame until footage was released online. I can't get past the shitty skin tones and the ridiculous noise reduction=mudd.  And I'm just not in the position or place in my career to warrant a dedicated video cam. Otherwise, I would probably go for the C200 or something like that. And I know I sound like a Canon fan boy but their image and usability on the day can't be beat. For my film I had originally rented a GH5.....a few hours later, it was back at the rental house. It was like a toy with a confusing menu.

My point being, I need gear that works, out of the box and intuitive in its use. I'll use whichever tool that allows me to get the shot or footage without getting in the way. And so far, thats been Canon. 

On set the 5D4 was amazing. Never once an issue. I used the amazing DPAF coupled with the Canon app on an iPad to frame and focus the shot. The app worked accurately 80% of the time and was truly a life saver. I would have wanted to send the body back to Canon to upgrade to C-Log but just didn't have time in the shooting schedule. Used Neutral Profile and with VERY limited lighting, was able to pull out amazing dynamic range and IQ. The 4K is true Cinema DCI and coupled with the crop, is a very pleasing, cinematic frame. No need for adding 'black bars' to the edit.

File size.....yep, they're huge. The film is just shy of 11 minutes. Rendered and exported in ProRes 422 HQ, with the applied LUT's, grain and audio; came to 63 Gigs in FCPX, 53 on the external drive and 49 going into Vimeo. But the quality! Wow! Seriously, everything from retaining dynamic range to the colour in the most organic way. Totally worth the upload time!

Things to consider....if you want C-Log, you need to either send away for installation or buy pre installed from BH?

Must have big, fast CF Cards. The camera will split clips into 4Gig sections if the care is smaller then 256Gig. In 4K thats about a minute of footage. Did I mention needing a lot of cards? But I bet its still less then shooting RAW on BMCC or RED....or having to buy the really expensive CFast or the SD cards to be able to do 4K in the GH5 or the Sony's.

When using the Canon App with the 5D4, you have to turn on the wi-fi in camera, which uses even more battery then shooting video. Haven't tested for length of use but easily used 3-4 in a full day of shooting.

I have never used the C100 but the footage is nice, without the limitations of a DSLR/Hybrid. Its probably super user friendly and gets the job done and if you don't need 4K, they're very reasonably priced. 

That's all I can think of for now. If there's anything specific you'd like to know, ask away. Happy to help.

 

[mercer]

@521photo Thanks a lot for all of that info. You actually already answered some of my follow up questions. I shoot ML Raw, so I’m not afraid of large file sizes. I’d probably get the C Log version if I decide to go that route, but as of now, I think the C100 is winning.

Do you have a link to your film?