Canon 5D IV HDMI like 1DC / 1DXII 1080p 4:2:2 output

[MdB]

9 hours ago, Django said:

Your money, your call pal.. but Canon aren't going to let Nikon steal all the thunder in the upcoming mirrorless wars presenting themselves in a month at Photokina and a mirrorless 5D4 could signify less 4K crop, less rolling shutter, 120Fps 1080p, zebras/peaking, IBIS etc in a lighter form factor which would be substantially more interesting for video. Of course mount, lens options is the biggest unknown at this point..

 

Canon are perfectly happy for them to. Have you not paid any attention to the camera market over the last half decade or more? That's like on the eve of the 36MP D800 launch people standing around saying Canon won't let Nikon eat their lunch and will have a high MP camera immediately after... years later we were still waiting. Yes I think they'll eventually do something, but they also don't want to cut their own grass. 

I don't care about peaking or zebras as I get that in monitor. 120fps would be good for some things, but honestly hoping the LX100 II will have 120fps and that will do me fine. 

8 hours ago, Jn- said:

#29 here, I don’t have an external recorder to test the 4K to fhd via hdmi.  Thing is if you admit you own a Canon 5DMk. IV on this site, all your likes are removed and your put in suspension for 3 months.  As an aside, the focal length multiplier is NOT 1.74.

Good to know. Most people I've known to have one have absolutely loved it. Yes the crop isn't really 1.74x because that includes the 16:9 or 1.85:1 crop, which isn't being included in the 'full frame coverage' models. It's pretty close to S35 and that's just fine by me. 

7 hours ago, mercer said:

But secretly you love the shit out of the camera and so do your clients probably. 

Seems very very likely. 

[Django]

6 hours ago, MdB said:

Canon are perfectly happy for them to. Have you not paid any attention to the camera market over the last half decade or more? That's like on the eve of the 36MP D800 launch people standing around saying Canon won't let Nikon eat their lunch and will have a high MP camera immediately after... years later we were still waiting. Yes I think they'll eventually do something, but they also don't want to cut their own grass. 

I don't care about peaking or zebras as I get that in monitor. 120fps would be good for some things, but honestly hoping the LX100 II will have 120fps and that will do me fine. 

 

Pull the trigger today mate.. but don't come crying in a month or so.. 

I know a lot of recent D850 owners with buyers remorse right now  

[MdB]

59 minutes ago, Django said:

Pull the trigger today mate.. but don't come crying in a month or so.. 

I know a lot of recent D850 owners with buyers remorse right now  

why? I thought it was the bestest camera ever in the whole wide world and none of these mirrorless toys would ever compete

[MdB]

On 8/21/2018 at 3:10 AM, mercer said:

But secretly you love the shit out of the camera and so do your clients probably. 

I ended up getting the 5D IV. I can confirm that it does lovely 1080p out of the HDMI using the 4K mode much like the 1DC does. It is actually a really fantastic camera and the crop 'feels' just like normal S35. The AF is fantastic. The image is lovely. There are lots of improvements all round (and some not so great rolling shutter). Also love that I can record the massive internal 4K files to SD card, unlike the 1DC. Will mean I'm more likely to also use the 4K internal. 

Need to get real C-Log on there ASAP though to really get the most out of it though, which is annoyingly a trip to Canon. 

Loving the DPAF and 1080p on this and the M50. Actually the latter is growing on me. 

[mercer]

3 minutes ago, MdB said:

I ended up getting the 5D IV. I can confirm that it does lovely 1080p out of the HDMI using the 4K mode much like the 1DC does. It is actually a really fantastic camera and the crop 'feels' just like normal S35. The AF is fantastic. The image is lovely. There are lots of improvements all round (and some not so great rolling shutter). Also love that I can record the massive internal 4K files to SD card, unlike the 1DC. Will mean I'm more likely to also use the 4K internal. 

Need to get real C-Log on there ASAP though to really get the most out of it though, which is annoyingly a trip to Canon. 

Loving the DPAF and 1080p on this and the M50. Actually the latter is growing on me. 

Glad to hear it... I am kind of a Canon fanboy. Lol. But seriously, how is the rolling shutter in 1080p on the 5D4 and the M50 for that matter? What about the M50 is growing on you, because honestly I am still intrigued by it. 

I’ll be in the market for a good cropped hybrid in a few months and I am secretly hoping the M5 Mark II is released with IBIS, 4K with no additional crop plus DPAF... wishful thinking though. 

[MdB]

25 minutes ago, mercer said:

But seriously, how is the rolling shutter in 1080p on the 5D4 and the M50 for that matter?

Both are pretty reasonable in 1080p modes. Pretty serviceable with no major headaches. To unlock the best 1080p you need to record to the external recorder using the 4K mode on the 5D IV with 1080p output. The 5D IV has bad rolling shutter in 4K mode as a result, but it can be worked around and overall not 'that' bad. Quite similar to the 1DC really. The M50 has horrendous rolling shutter in 4K mode. Just unusable. Even with an IS lens and keeping things really still. 

On the plus side both have vastly improved 1080p over previous Canon's. In fact the M50 is possibly better than the 5D IV. 

29 minutes ago, mercer said:

What about the M50 is growing on you, because honestly I am still intrigued by it. 

Well instead of focussing on what was awful about it (and still is) i.e. the really bad controls, rolling shutter in 4K, crop in 4K (though that's useful at times in theory), terrible build quality, bad range of AF modes, poor battery life, really poor customisation to try and fix some of these issues and so on. Instead been just using it for what I intended to use it for. It has lovely image quality, both for video and stills. Works really well with adapted lenses, great with the Sigma APS-C zooms (I use both the 17-50 OS HSM and 50-150 OS HSM f/2.8's and the f/1.8 18-35 and 50-100) as well as the enormous Art primes (which are partly silly but because they work so great and produces such nice images still really useful). It's also built cheap and fiddly because it is both light and small. It does a great job of both, while still having excellent AF and decent speed and quality all round. Plus while the controls are poor, it is quite good at being a happy snap machine, which is actually what I wanted it for. The face tracking and AF and great colour and all that do work well, making it perfect for that purpose. As does the Wifi implementation etc. I prefer it with the Sigma f/1.8 zooms to the Sony A7 III with f/2.8 zooms generally. 

One lens I am really interested in is the Samyang 85mm f/1.4 AF as it is so stocky and light compared to most 85mm f/1.4s - Actually seems like a good compliment. 

39 minutes ago, mercer said:

I’ll be in the market for a good cropped hybrid in a few months and I am secretly hoping the M5 Mark II is released with IBIS, 4K with no additional crop plus DPAF... wishful thinking though. 

Me too! Can't wait to see what the next gen looks like. I really hope they bring some of that G1X III into the M5 II, that would be pretty amazing! That plus the OS and CPU and other updates of the M50, along with a new sensor that can do decent 4K subsampling straight off the sensor would become an absolutely killer pocket cam IMO. 

[mercer]

24 minutes ago, MdB said:

Both are pretty reasonable in 1080p modes. Pretty serviceable with no major headaches. To unlock the best 1080p you need to record to the external recorder using the 4K mode on the 5D IV with 1080p output. The 5D IV has bad rolling shutter in 4K mode as a result, but it can be worked around and overall not 'that' bad. Quite similar to the 1DC really. The M50 has horrendous rolling shutter in 4K mode. Just unusable. Even with an IS lens and keeping things really still. 

On the plus side both have vastly improved 1080p over previous Canon's. In fact the M50 is possibly better than the 5D IV. 

Well instead of focussing on what was awful about it (and still is) i.e. the really bad controls, rolling shutter in 4K, crop in 4K (though that's useful at times in theory), terrible build quality, bad range of AF modes, poor battery life, really poor customisation to try and fix some of these issues and so on. Instead been just using it for what I intended to use it for. It has lovely image quality, both for video and stills. Works really well with adapted lenses, great with the Sigma APS-C zooms (I use both the 17-50 OS HSM and 50-150 OS HSM f/2.8's and the f/1.8 18-35 and 50-100) as well as the enormous Art primes (which are partly silly but because they work so great and produces such nice images still really useful). It's also built cheap and fiddly because it is both light and small. It does a great job of both, while still having excellent AF and decent speed and quality all round. Plus while the controls are poor, it is quite good at being a happy snap machine, which is actually what I wanted it for. The face tracking and AF and great colour and all that do work well, making it perfect for that purpose. As does the Wifi implementation etc. I prefer it with the Sigma f/1.8 zooms to the Sony A7 III with f/2.8 zooms generally. 

One lens I am really interested in is the Samyang 85mm f/1.4 AF as it is so stocky and light compared to most 85mm f/1.4s - Actually seems like a good compliment. 

Me too! Can't wait to see what the next gen looks like. I really hope they bring some of that G1X III into the M5 II, that would be pretty amazing! That plus the OS and CPU and other updates of the M50, along with a new sensor that can do decent 4K subsampling straight off the sensor would become an absolutely killer pocket cam IMO. 

I just checked the prices at B&H and for $699 with the kit zoom, the camera is getting more and more attractive. But I’m definitely going to wait to see if they release something else this Fall. 

Do you use the official Canon adapter with the M50 or the Vello? I have a few USM lenses that I’d probably want to use with it if I go that route.

[MdB]

9 hours ago, mercer said:

I just checked the prices at B&H and for $699 with the kit zoom, the camera is getting more and more attractive. But I’m definitely going to wait to see if they release something else this Fall. 

Do you use the official Canon adapter with the M50 or the Vello? I have a few USM lenses that I’d probably want to use with it if I go that route.

I have the Canon, have had it since the first M (1). I would wait. I think it shows that Canon can do a great job with these things, just now needed in a bit more ‘enthusuast’ body. But Canon - Fix your customisation, it’s appalling! 

[mercer]

Really, I’ve never had an issue with Canon menus. But I usually don’t do too much customization either... pretty much set everything to manual and use the Q menu for any changes.

I have seen some pretty okay stuff shot with the M50, so hopefully these are signs to come. If the price continues to drop, I may pick one up anyway... even with the horrible RS in 4K, old c-mounts and Canon color sounds like a good time. And as a glovebox cam for photos and 1080p with the 22mm could prove useful.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with it.

[MdB]

20 hours ago, Jn- said:

Hi Mdb, if you get the time, or perhaps you have already checked, what order of quality, say lowest to highest, would you put the following 3 items in the 5D mk. IV ... (1) FHD .. (2) 4K downsampled to FHD in an NLE .. and (3) FHD in external recorder via camera 4K, thanks.  As i’ve said I cannot test, no external recorder, but if the FHD item (3) is a lot better than (2) I will consider, good luck with your new purchase.

There is a definite and distinct improvement in image quality between those two. The disadvantage being the crop and the rolling shutter. 

Fortunately a s/h Ninja is going for peanuts these days if price is a concern. But personally the BMVA 5" is the recorder to get (and not badly priced). 

I want to do some further tests and put a reel together, but I want to include the 1DC and the 5D IV with C-Log, which I will have to send it away for first. 

[MdB]

3 hours ago, Jn- said:

Thanks Mdb for getting back with this, and also the recorder suggestions.  I might wait for the Ninja V as another option.  

When you say .. “between those two”, are you referring to my items (1) and (3) or my items (2) and (3)?  Thanks in advance.  

I'm mainly curious to see if the FHD output (via 4K internal to HDMI) is indeed better than if downscaled to FHD from 4K on an NLE timeline.

Do you think the Ninja V would be suitable for the 5D IV also?

Sorry I think I may have mixed them around. It’s not something I’ve yet tested, because I don’t see a huge point. The advantage of the 4K - 1080p downsampling through the HDMI is the better compression plus easier to deal with files. I don’t see there being ‘much’ difference in the IQ between the two TBH. That’s not to say the 1080p looks the same as 4K, but that downsampling in NLE or in the fly will have much of a difference. 

But it’s something I will definitely test. Also want to see the 1DC and 5DIV 4K straight to card and see the difference there (both with C-Log). I’ve had a lot of trouble finding any other references to such a test elsewhere. 

I seem to remember the 5D IV in 4K (to camera) not being ‘that’ much better than the 1080p out of the C100. The 1DC and 5D IV both seem to do a bit better 1080p (from the 4K off sensor) than the C100 does. 

Basically these do some of the best 1080p I’ve seen anywhere. But I really think it need the C-Log.  

[webrunner5]

Yeah when you see a video like this all shot on a 1DC sure makes you want sell a Kidney LoL.

 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah when you see a video like this all shot on a 1DC sure makes you want sell a Kidney LoL.

 

Yeah... that is pretty spectacular looking. I know mjpeg is highly unpopular in these here parts, but I often wonder how much it contributes to the 1DC’s “look,” because 6 years later and I have yet to see another 4K capable camera with that level of output.

[webrunner5]

24 minutes ago, mercer said:

Yeah... that is pretty spectacular looking. I know mjpeg is highly unpopular in these here parts, but I often wonder how much it contributes to the 1DC’s “look,” because 6 years later and I have yet to see another 4K capable camera with that level of output.

Well I am sure it does matter. Did you see the data rate I posted in the Blackmagic PK4 thread? Guess what the 1DC is pushing as much data as the Ursa is in 4K Raw! Now it is not the same Bit Rate, it is 8 bit, but still probably the main reason it looks so good, well Canon CS is pretty good also LoL.

URSA & URSA Mini

4608 x 2592
CinemaDNG RAW - 513MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 3:1 - 180 MB/s
CinemaDNG RAW 4:1 - 135 MB/s

 

Canon 1DC

Bit Rates, by shooting mode (approximate):

4k/ 500 Mbps

Super 35mm / 24p, 25p90 Mbps (All-I);  30 Mbps  (IPB)

Super 35mm / 30p90 Mbps (All-I);  30 Mbps  (IPB)

Full HD / 60p, 50p180 Mbps  (All-I)

Full HD / 24p, 25p, 30p90 Mbps  (All-I)

Full HD / 24p, 25p, 30p30 Mbps  (IPB)

720 / 60p, 50p80 Mbps  (All-I)

720 / 60p, 50p26 Mbps  (IPB)

SD / 30p9 Mbps  (IPB)

[MdB]

On 8/28/2018 at 3:09 AM, mercer said:

Yeah... that is pretty spectacular looking. I know mjpeg is highly unpopular in these here parts, but I often wonder how much it contributes to the 1DC’s “look,” because 6 years later and I have yet to see another 4K capable camera with that level of output.

I'd say that's part of it, probably. MJPEG is basically the JPEG engine from Canon DSLRs as video @ 24/25/30fps. So it has that look, but adds C-Log to compress the DR in. 

I'd say though, that the 1DC is also one of the last of the Canon 'old colour' that they are most known for. SOOC colour is better on the 1DC than the 5D IV IMO. The 1DC therefore represents the best video they do with that old Canon colour and in that way it's rather special / unique. 5D IV has a much more green colour tint to it. 

I think the 1DC will go down as one of those very special and collectable cameras. I've been enjoying the features (PDAF) of the 5D IV and M50, but going back to the 1DC is just something else. 

 

 

[Django]

Yeah I still love shooting my 5D mark 1 for that classic Canon look.. and of course C100 mark 1. Colour on those is just something special.

1DC in my opinion is still one of the best Canon cameras to this day for hybrid shooters. 4k with minimum APS-H crop & best quality in-camera 1080p in S35 mode. C-log. Classic Canon colors. I just may pick one up as a side-arm to my C100 if Canon doesn't come through with a promising MILC this fall.

I'd be curious to see this 4k mode HDMI 1080p from the 5DIV/1DC but i already know i'd find it a major hassle to record externally just to get a quality cropped 1080p, with poor RS.

[mercer]

22 hours ago, MdB said:

I'd say that's part of it, probably. MJPEG is basically the JPEG engine from Canon DSLRs as video @ 24/25/30fps. So it has that look, but adds C-Log to compress the DR in. 

I'd say though, that the 1DC is also one of the last of the Canon 'old colour' that they are most known for. SOOC colour is better on the 1DC than the 5D IV IMO. The 1DC therefore represents the best video they do with that old Canon colour and in that way it's rather special / unique. 5D IV has a much more green colour tint to it. 

I think the 1DC will go down as one of those very special and collectable cameras. I've been enjoying the features (PDAF) of the 5D IV and M50, but going back to the 1DC is just something else. 

 

 

The 1DC has been THE camera I’ve wanted for years. The 1DXii is close with its 4K 60p but without cLog, it just falls a little short. When the 1DC gets down to C100 price point, I may HAVE to buy one. 

C100 Mark 1 vs. 1DC... thoughts?

[Django]

Apple & oranges a bit I'd say. C100 is a proper cine cam with ND filters, flip screen, XLR, peaking/zebras/waveform & DPAF with the upgrade. 1DC is a hybrid cam, so you get a killer stills cam but you do get FF, S35 & APS-H 4K on the video side. IQ wise i think @MdB said C100 had nicer motion & maybe tad sharper 1080p?

Also I'm curious how is the rolling shutter on 1DC in S35 mode?

[Mattias Burling]

I sold my 1DC to go back to ML Raw in the 5Dmkiii. So imo you are already set @mercer 

[mercer]

11 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

I sold my 1DC to go back to ML Raw in the 5Dmkiii. So imo you are already set @mercer 

Yeah, I know I am... it’s the end of summer GAS... I go through it every year. I really just need a point and shoot camera that I can carry around with me for casual stills and video.