Oliver Daniel Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I've been shooting on the GH5 pretty much exclusively for everything. It's a lovely camera! (I since sold my FS5 + Atomos). Ironically, now my business has changed tactics - brands in fashion, sports and lifestyle are knocking on the door with serious projects. One of the main features of this new model is a wide studio Chromaflex LED green screen, and these type of brands love slow motion. We'll be using it a lot. With this in mind, with beefy high frame rate recording required, I now have to look at this camera segment again..... What would be really ideal, is that I have a set of matching cameras (A, B and C cams) to cover a wide range of possibilities - such as multi-cam, audio, stills, run-n-gun, gimbal and motion control. HERE'S THE PROBLEM.... you can't simply get all the features you need. It's trivial...... So, help me decide. Haha. Ideally I need: Very high quality 4k capture. High frame rates up to 240fps (10 bit and higher) Lightweight and compact all round. Decent to awesome dynamic range. Great colour. Decent stills. Great audio. Good autofocus for gimbals is highly desirable. Ability to fit all cameras on Ronin-S and Edelkrone Motion Kit. Easy to hire to others as a kit. EF lenses compatible. Also got great M43 glass. Choice 1 Panasonic EVA1 (A cam) Atomos Sumo (clients want big monitors) Panasonic GH5 (got it) Panasonic GH5S (B Cam) Issues: Unreliable autofocus for gimbals, prefer the look of S35 and full frame sensors. Can cope though! Choice 2 Kinefinity Terra or Mavo (A Cam) BMPCC 4k (B cam, pre-ordered with small deposit) GH5 for everything else. Issues: Lesser known brand, hard to get, no gimbal autofocus, never used before. LOVE the image. Choice 3 FS5 II (A Cam) Atomos Sumo Sony A7SIII (B-cam if it's good) Sony A7III (C cam and stills) Issues: Had FS5 before with Atomos Shogun, FSRAW and ProRes were barely any better than the internal XAVC-L. I do know Sony VERY well though. What do you think? And no, I'm not getting a RED Raven or a Scarlet or whatever. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBounce Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Well apart from the 240fps why not the Canon C200? The Canon route makes the choice for B (1DXMk2) and C (5DMkIV) cams easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaronChicago Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 FS5ii is an interesting camera. The new Venice color science looks really good in an HDR or REC709 container. Pair it with an Atomos recorder and get ProRes Raw. I'm planning on trying it out with an EF-E SpeedBooster and some full frame primes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webrunner5 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I would talk to Zak about the EVA1. His output is really damn good. Ought to go well with the GH5 like you said. But not so hot auto focus wise. If you want AF on a Cine Camera it pretty much is DPAF or go home. Trouble with Canon is the C200 sucks ass on a middle Codec, and the Canon C300 mk II is still expensive as hell even used. Another problem with the Canons is what you going to use for a B, C cam with them. The 1DC, 1DX mk II is expensive as heck and and gas hog on Media to feed them. The 5D mk IV, Ugh, not my idea of a winner either with the crop factor. But there is like a million used lenses out there for them, and they are built like a tank, as is the bodies, which is good. I think I would want a Sony FS7 over the Sony FS5 mk II. The FS7 mk II is hardly worth the upgrade other than the Variable ND filter thingy. But the FS7 is pretty big for Gimbal use. The FS7 is just a hell of a great camera though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JordanWright Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Have you considered the Ursa Mini Pro? It might not be as small and light as the other offerings but it should pair well with a P4k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Daniel Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 2 hours ago, DBounce said: Well apart from the 240fps why not the Canon C200? The Canon route makes the choice for B (1DXMk2) and C (5DMkIV) cams easy. The C200 HFR options are simply not up to scratch, otherwise it would be a no-brainer. 2 hours ago, AaronChicago said: FS5ii is an interesting camera. The new Venice color science looks really good in an HDR or REC709 container. Pair it with an Atomos recorder and get ProRes Raw. I'm planning on trying it out with an EF-E SpeedBooster and some full frame primes. Yeah, the colour looks a lot better than before and I'm wondering whether ProRes RAW will be better than what was before. The original FS5 output via an Atomos was disappointing. The A7 cams have great autofocus for gimbals although 8-bit. 46 minutes ago, JordanWright said: Have you considered the Ursa Mini Pro? It might not be as small and light as the other offerings but it should pair well with a P4k Yes. The HD windowed 120fps isn't what I'm looking for though, and it's a bit on the heavy side. I like the idea of putting one of the cameras on a Ronin-S for the odd shot. 1 hour ago, webrunner5 said: I would talk to Zak about the EVA1. His output is really damn good. Ought to go well with the GH5 like you said. But not so hot auto focus wise. If you want AF on a Cine Camera it pretty much is DPAF or go home. Trouble with Canon is the C200 sucks ass on a middle Codec, and the Canon C300 mk II is still expensive as hell even used. Another problem with the Canons is what you going to use for a B, C cam with them. The 1DC, 1DX mk II is expensive as heck and and gas hog on Media to feed them. The 5D mk IV, Ugh, not my idea of a winner either with the crop factor. But there is like a million used lenses out there for them, and they are built like a tank, as is the bodies, which is good. I think I would want a Sony FS7 over the Sony FS5 mk II. The FS7 mk II is hardly worth the upgrade other than the Variable ND filter thingy. But the FS7 is pretty big for Gimbal use. The FS7 is just a hell of a great camera though. I've got a lot of experience with the FS7 but still a bit too big for what I'm looking to do, plus to output to an Atomos you need that extension thingy. Having got a GH5 and a VLOG workflow, I am looking at the EVA1 more closely. Do you know if this crops in HFR modes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkabi Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 What is your budget like? You need 240fps in 1080P? What about 4K? Happy with just 60P? Obviously.... the GH5S is good enough, but sensor size is becoming a limitation? Otherwise, I would recommend the Z Cam E2. In my opinion, if you weren't restricted by a budget and/or if you were cool with RED, check out Used RED Epic X on Ebay. You can't go wrong -> Super 35, 5K @ 120fps, 4K @ 150fps, 3K @ 200fps & 2K @ 300fps. And, all in compressed RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Husker Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 How about this as another choice? Choice 4 Canon C200 (A cam) - Many clients love the canon color and find it to be quite pleasing, plus canon cinema cameras just scream professional for clients in general. Sony FS700 (Slow Motion Cam) Treat this as a specialty cam for slowmo, you can get 2K DCI 240fps if used with an atomos recorder for very cheap, not to mention the in camera burst. Panasonic GH5 (B Cam) Great all rounder that can be used in most situations, just not great auto-focus and you already own it. Pros: You're covered in every aspect, you can have the C200 to please clients and get the best autofocus on gimbals, the FS700 will get you some of the best slowmo under 10K and cost you around 2.5K and you already have the GH5 as a great all rounder you can take into every little corner and get a great image. Cons: That's three different color sciences to deal with, while I personally don't think this is much of an hassle, some might struggle with it. Also three different mounts but sticking with EF lenses and using adapters on Sony and Panasonic shouldn't be much of a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Daniel Posted July 17, 2018 Author Share Posted July 17, 2018 4 hours ago, mkabi said: What is your budget like? You need 240fps in 1080P? What about 4K? Happy with just 60P? Obviously.... the GH5S is good enough, but sensor size is becoming a limitation? Otherwise, I would recommend the Z Cam E2. In my opinion, if you weren't restricted by a budget and/or if you were cool with RED, check out Used RED Epic X on Ebay. You can't go wrong -> Super 35, 5K @ 120fps, 4K @ 150fps, 3K @ 200fps & 2K @ 300fps. And, all in compressed RAW. Yeah, saw a Scarlet-W package for £9k today. I find the older REDs too heavy really. Would love 4K 100fps continuous (Kine cams do it), also love the lightweight build. 2 hours ago, William Husker said: How about this as another choice? Choice 4 Canon C200 (A cam) - Many clients love the canon color and find it to be quite pleasing, plus canon cinema cameras just scream professional for clients in general. Sony FS700 (Slow Motion Cam) Treat this as a specialty cam for slowmo, you can get 2K DCI 240fps if used with an atomos recorder for very cheap, not to mention the in camera burst. Panasonic GH5 (B Cam) Great all rounder that can be used in most situations, just not great auto-focus and you already own it. Pros: You're covered in every aspect, you can have the C200 to please clients and get the best autofocus on gimbals, the FS700 will get you some of the best slowmo under 10K and cost you around 2.5K and you already have the GH5 as a great all rounder you can take into every little corner and get a great image. Cons: That's three different color sciences to deal with, while I personally don't think this is much of an hassle, some might struggle with it. Also three different mounts but sticking with EF lenses and using adapters on Sony and Panasonic shouldn't be much of a problem. Thanks. C200 is a no as HFR options aren’t beefy enough. FS700, too old now. Used it loads!! I’m so far favouring an EVA1 led Panasonic setup, although the relish of Kinefinity is whispering in my ears... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 9 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said: Choice 2 Kinefinity Terra or Mavo (A Cam) BMPCC 4k (B cam, pre-ordered with small deposit) GH5 for everything else. Issues: Lesser known brand, hard to get, no gimbal autofocus, never used before. LOVE the image. I am very curious as to how easily the Kinefinity Terra 4K / Z Cam E2 / GH5S / BMPCC4K will be able to be perfectly matched up in post as rumors are they all share the same sensor underneath. Could make up for an interesting "matching" set up for multicam if so. You might like to look into wireless follow focus (they've been coming down in price a lot lately!) so you can pull focus for shots on a gimbal. This for instance is great and is extremely affordable: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1367922-REG/tilta_nucleus_m_wireless_follow_focus.html 9 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said: Issues: Had FS5 before with Atomos Shogun, FSRAW and ProRes were barely any better than the internal XAVC-L. Hmmmmmm......... I strongly doubt that? I'd expect it to be a leap above XAVC-L 8bit 420 Did you ask about your concerns on DVXuser? There is a strong community of FS series owners over there. 9 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said: And no, I'm not getting a RED Raven or a Scarlet or whatever. ? Ha! Good. 6 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said: I've got a lot of experience with the FS7 but still a bit too big for what I'm looking to do, plus to output to an Atomos you need that extension thingy. If you got a FS7 I'd ditch the idea of external and stick to internal recordings. However the XDCA is worth it for the TC input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Isn’t the 240p in the Eva1 cropped? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 5 hours ago, mkabi said: In my opinion, if you weren't restricted by a budget and/or if you were cool with RED, check out Used RED Epic X on Ebay. You can't go wrong -> Super 35, 5K @ 120fps, 4K @ 150fps, 3K @ 200fps & 2K @ 300fps. And, all in compressed RAW. But the downside is you have to put up with the MX sensor. I mean for goodness sake even the AF100 does better in low light than the RED Epic: http://philipbloom.net/blog/kesslerdoc1/ Using my F3 I really appreciate its lowlight capabilities so I can work with smaller lighting packages and a smaller lighting crew (which I have to do, I'm no big shot DoP!). Sometimes like last weekend I'll use something as small as a Dedo for a fill, and my key might only be a 1.2K Fresnel Tungsten, and that will be enough for even quite slow F stops so the cam op can handle pulling focus himself even with tight shots and the talent swaying back and forth. webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 4 hours ago, William Husker said: Sony FS700 (Slow Motion Cam) Treat this as a specialty cam for slowmo, you can get 2K DCI 240fps if used with an atomos recorder for very cheap, not to mention the in camera burst. You need the Shogun Inferno for 2K 240fps? Which is $1.3K, that nearly doubles the price. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1334247-REG/atomos_atomshgin2_shogun_inferno_7_4k.html Or is there a cheaper alternative for 2K 120fps? 2 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said: FS700, too old now. Used it loads!! But is old bad? Am still using my Sony PMW-F3! I'd happily stick with it for years to come if only it had 4K. 2 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said: Would love 4K 100fps continuous (Kine cams do it), also love the lightweight build. Yeah probably the Kinefinity Terra 4K is my biggest alternative to the FS700 I'm considering, but that means a big leap in price. (even if I find one secondhand, which is possible but unlikely) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonim Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Because you are very capable master, I'd say anything clever (my point is, actually, appeal to your so masterful knowledge): simply add GH5s to your arsenal and save money... maybe for some new excellent lenses, say, Fujinon zooms, some anamorphic solution or so. Why to foolish ourselves too much: all quoted cameras are extremely close in final result, especially for purpose... so, I vote to stay mobile and quick, and rig further as you like it regarding purpose and client.... Jump over one generation of actual market offer... Besides, it looks to me cool to be seen as skilled gunman with pair of two gh5(s) Colts 45. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Husker Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 6 hours ago, IronFilm said: You need the Shogun Inferno for 2K 240fps? Which is $1.3K, that nearly doubles the price. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1334247-REG/atomos_atomshgin2_shogun_inferno_7_4k.html Or is there a cheaper alternative for 2K 120fps? He did say he wanted to get the Atomos Sumo, perhaps in certain situations like fashion shoots it would suffice. Also the camera does possess an in camera burst mode that records 8 seconds of 240fps at 1080p, maybe it would be enough for him. It really depends on the OP's exact needs I guess. The FS700 is an oldie but still a good camera, despite it's flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelbb Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 7 hours ago, IronFilm said: You need the Shogun Inferno for 2K 240fps? Which is $1.3K, that nearly doubles the price. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1334247-REG/atomos_atomshgin2_shogun_inferno_7_4k.html Or is there a cheaper alternative for 2K 120fps? It depends what your requirements are. The king for cheap HFR is the Sony RX100 V. You can record 1920x1080 120fps all day or 4-7 second bursts at 240fps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronFilm Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 30 minutes ago, nigelbb said: It depends what your requirements are. The king for cheap HFR is the Sony RX100 V. You can record 1920x1080 120fps all day or 4-7 second bursts at 240fps. The FS700 4K 120fps (or 2K 240fps) is in a totally different world. The FS700 can just look beautiful: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelbb Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, IronFilm said: The FS700 4K 120fps (or 2K 240fps) is in a totally different world. The FS700 can just look beautiful: As I said it depends on your requirements & none of the shots in that video were over a couple of seconds. webrunner5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zak Forsman Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 On 7/18/2018 at 4:59 AM, Oliver Daniel said: Having got a GH5 and a VLOG workflow, I am looking at the EVA1 more closely. Do you know if this crops in HFR modes? 17 hours ago, mercer said: Isn’t the 240p in the Eva1 cropped? EVA1 has a 1.5x crop Super35 sensor and does not crop or window up to 120fps in full DCI 2K (not just HD), but does crop to m43 for 240fps. it also will shoot 2K 10-bit up to 120fps, but 8-bit for 240fps. mercer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf33d Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 No hesitation for me the FS5 choice. Great slowmo. Prores Raw is sick. Best B and C cam with the incoming a7siii with great AF for gimbal shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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