EVA1 vs Terra 4k or Mavo vs FS5 II - decisions!

[Oliver Daniel]

On 8/4/2018 at 12:18 AM, newfoundmass said:

Ultimately I think Oliver should consider versatility; he'd cover pretty much every base with the EVA1, GH5S, and GH5, with auto focus being the only thing he can't really make up for. His options are pretty much limitless when his 'b' and 'c' cams would have features that aren't too far off from his 'a' cam and could easily be swapped in and used for a lot of the work he is going to be doing. 

Yes, versatility is the priority aim of the game. The camera setups needs to cover almost every scenario possible, as that's how my work is going. Everything is so different that one camera can't do it all.

The main thing that bothers me most about the Sony package are the internal codecs being weaker (should I need them at any time), and that's about it. 

With the Panasonic package, mainly it's the cropped 4k 60p and 240fps, only correctable by purchasing wider lenses (which in the high quality range are very expensive). 

I wouldn't ever intend to use the A7 cameras for green screen work. I do also have a BMPCC 4k on pre-order. 

My comparison chart still says the Sony package edges it (to cover ALL situations), but not by much. 

May have to test the GH5 properly on a gimbal. 

[newfoundmass]

I've been extremely happy with the Moza Air and GH5, especially since the latest firmware update. 

It'll come down obviously to what you can live with/without obviously, me personally though I'd prefer having b and c cams that can do 60p 4k and 10 bit even if I have to deal with the crop. It's why I end up using a friends GH5 a lot as a b cam instead of my G85 and will probably end up buying one myself in the not so distant future. I love the G85 and its great for a lot of projects, but more than a couple of times I've been in a position where I wish my second shooter and I both had a GH5 because something came up and we both needed those key GH5 features. Wrestling events can be extremely hectic, so you're never really able to prepare no matter how much you try. 

Either way I'm jealous about whatever set up you go with

[Oliver Daniel]

On 8/5/2018 at 5:44 PM, newfoundmass said:

 Either way I'm jealous about whatever set up you go with

Haha, don't be, every year is rock bottom and sky high - never in between. Although what i'm about to say might be completely contradictory.....

I'm actually now seriously considering being extra more patient and going for the Kinefinity Mavo as A cam and the BMPCC 4k as B-cam (I have cheeky pre-orders down for both). 

My reason?

I'm positioning my work more higher end than it is now, and emotively, I much much much prefer the images these cameras (will) produce. 

Also, now I'm having to re-purpose everything on social, I've found the true power of not making them look like shit online is down-converting from higher resolutions (as a lot of my work is shot higher than 50fps and slowed down). Also having to constantly insanely crop and zoom for picky clients. 

So I may just work more jobs, save some more cash, be patient and go for it. 

[webrunner5]

Wow hanging it out with two pretty much unproven cameras is growing some pretty large you know whats that is for sure. I know 6K would be great, but hell the lowly Sony A7 mk III is using a 6K sensor.

Heck the Panny EVA1 is 5.7K with a pretty damn good look to it. And Dual ISO to boot. Granted only the GH5, GH5s to use a a B cam, but could be a hell of a lot worse. I like the GH5s. Interesting.

[Oliver Daniel]

2 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Wow hanging it out with two pretty much unproven cameras is growing some pretty large you know whats that is for sure. I know 6K would be great, but hell the lowly Sony A7 mk III is using a 6K sensor.

Heck the Panny EVA1 is 5.7K with a pretty damn good look to it. And Dual ISO to boot. Granted only the GH5, GH5s to use a a B cam, but could be a hell of a lot worse. I like the GH5s. Interesting.

I lost my mind years ago getting into video. It's a completely insane profession. I can't quite remember why I'm doing it.

I might just get all of them, maybe RED Monstro and a Venice too. ?

Or maybe I'll stick with an iPhone and Osmo Mobile 2. 

Ultimately, it's down to image quality. 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, Oliver Daniel said:

I lost my mind years ago getting into video. It's a completely insane profession. I can't quite remember why I'm doing it.

I might just get all of them, maybe RED Monstro and a Venice too. ?

Or maybe I'll stick with an iPhone and Osmo Mobile 2. 

Ultimately, it's down to image quality. 

Yeah Video is really not too bad to be in IF someone else is paying the bills LoL. It is when You are paying the bills is when it gets crazy, scary crazy!

All of the Kinefinity products look like they have a hell of a nice output, but sort of being a Ginny Pig on Your Dime as they say is to me risky. What if it breaks down, you going to be able to rent one, get it repaired in a day?? Sounds kind of like I may be out of business thing. ☹️

 

[Oliver Daniel]

10 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Yeah Video is really not too bad to be in IF someone else is paying the bills LoL. It is when You are paying the bills is when it gets crazy, scary crazy!

All of the Kinefinity products look like they have a hell of a nice output, but sort of being a Ginny Pig on Your Dime as they say is to me risky. What if it breaks down, you going to be able to rent one, get it repaired in a day?? Sounds kind of like I may be out of business thing. ☹️

 

Yep, just waiting in my car now for others to arrive for a shoot. It’s Saturday morning. What am I doing here? ?

In all honestly, my new setup will most likely be all Sony - regardless of how much I personally desire the Mavo setup. Sometimes it’s worth exploring a bit of mania. 

Only thing that bugs me a bit on the FS5, is when recording internally, it’s way behind all the others. Nothing is ever perfect. 

[webrunner5]

5 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

 

Only thing that bugs me a bit on the FS5, is when recording internally, it’s way behind all the others. Nothing is ever perfect. 

I know it is easy to spend your money, but unless you need the smaller size for a Gimbal, wouldn't the FS7 be a better way to go over the FS5? Seems to me to be a better camera. The original one is not much more than the FS5 . But they are bigger no doubt, well a lot bigger. But I can see the desire for the electronic ND filter on the FS5.

Kind of a quick and dirty comparison.

https://www.hireacamera.com/en-gb/blog/motion/sony-pxw-fs5-and-pxw-fs7-the-difference/

[mercer]

Idk, after looking at what Sage has done for the GH5/s, I think I would go with the Panasonic route. Since you already own at least one of the three, the investment will be a lot smaller and I don’t know if you’ve seen Zak Forsman’s footage from the EVA1, but it looks great.

Of the sub 10,000, my order of purchase, for me and my tastes would be:

1. C200 (obviously) internal Raw video with DPAF... yes, please may I have another. Add an SDI recorder and you can have 2K 10bit ProRes from the Raw signal while you record raw internally... but I know this camera doesn’t meet your requirements... just reiterating how much I want one. Lol.

2. EVA1 - just a beautiful output that is broadcast ready and you can shoot Raw externally (and maybe ProRes Raw?) if you have higher end projects that are worth the extra storage and post. Plus you can use Sage’s post workflow to match the GH5/s and EVA1 if necessary. Plus-Plus, your B and C cams will have 10bit and an anamorphic mode with the GH5 also having IBIS.

3. Ursa Mini Pro - P4K as a B-Cam that should (?) be able to fill in as an A-Cam on certain shoots that need a smaller footprint. As John Brawley has demonstrated, the 1080 ProRes is more than good enough for network television, so with less than demanding clients, your FCPX workflow will be butter smooth using internal codecs... no need for an external recorder there.

4. FS5 ii - I really like the output from Sony cameras... I usually buy one a year... but in this instance it seems like it’s the safe choice because you want decent AF. But other than slow motion, I don’t know if the FS5 is really best in any other category and although I’m sure slow motion is important, is it more than 50% of your work? If it is, then there’s your answer. It’s also the only option that shares a mount with your A and B cams. Plus your B cam is FF with good AF. So the safe choice could be the best choice in this instance...

Hmm, tough one.

[Oliver Daniel]

7 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

I know it is easy to spend your money, but unless you need the smaller size for a Gimbal, wouldn't the FS7 be a better way to go over the FS5? Seems to me to be a better camera. The original one is not much more than the FS5 . But they are bigger no doubt, well a lot bigger. But I can see the desire for the electronic ND filter on the FS5.

Kind of a quick and dirty comparison.

https://www.hireacamera.com/en-gb/blog/motion/sony-pxw-fs5-and-pxw-fs7-the-difference/

Used the FS7 a lot. The image is thicker and still better than most in its price range, nearly 4 years later. Astonishing.

Certainly a contender - just the bulk on my grip and motion equipment! 

4 hours ago, mercer said:

Idk, after looking at what Sage has done for the GH5/s, I think I would go with the Panasonic route. Since you already own at least one of the three, the investment will be a lot smaller and I don’t know if you’ve seen Zak Forsman’s footage from the EVA1, but it looks great.

2. EVA1 - just a beautiful output that is broadcast ready and you can shoot Raw externally (and maybe ProRes Raw?) if you have higher end projects that are worth the extra storage and post. Plus you can use Sage’s post workflow to match the GH5/s and EVA1 if necessary. Plus-Plus, your B and C cams will have 10bit and an anamorphic mode with the GH5 also having IBIS.

3. Ursa Mini Pro - P4K as a B-Cam that should (?) be able to fill in as an A-Cam on certain shoots that need a smaller footprint. As John Brawley has demonstrated, the 1080 ProRes is more than good enough for network television, so with less than demanding clients, your FCPX workflow will be butter smooth using internal codecs... no need for an external recorder there.

4. FS5 ii - I really like the output from Sony cameras... I usually buy one a year... but in this instance it seems like it’s the safe choice because you want decent AF. But other than slow motion, I don’t know if the FS5 is really best in any other category and although I’m sure slow motion is important, is it more than 50% of your work? If it is, then there’s your answer. It’s also the only option that shares a mount with your A and B cams. Plus your B cam is FF with good AF. So the safe choice could be the best choice in this instance...

Hmm, tough one.

EVA1 and GH5 with Sage look = awesome.  I haven’t dismissed this. The crop of the EVA1 HFR bothers me though. Plus gimbal AF isn’t the most reliable. 

Ursa Mini Pro - used it today on a multi cam shoot. Incredible image but for handheld work, it’s like holding a tank. Mini it’s not. Awesome for studio work on sticks. 

FS5 II and co.... safest and “best” all rounder. Biggest issue is the FS5 II is a bit out of date without the external option. A7 cams (so far) not 10bit. 

Kinefinity Mavo. Probably looking the most impressive but unproven and the most expensive option. Certainly the most desired, but will there really be much of a noticeable difference for clients? Is it worth the hard fought extra effort for what could be for (possibly) very little extra value? Plus HFR modes are very cropped. 

Important factors really: 

1. A-camera must be lightweight and work with my current gear (like Edelkeone Motion Kit). 

2. A-camera will 90% of the time be hooked up to a large monitor, off camera. 

3. A-camera must have very high quality HFR (client demand). 

4. A-camera must have very high detail, clarity and dynamic range. 

5. B-cameras must be great for gimbals (great AF desired). 

6. B-cameras have decent HFR options. 

7. B-cameras have decent stills capability. 

8. All cameras work easy together in a workflow. 

[AaronChicago]

@Oliver Daniel have you used an EasyRig? It makes holding cameras like the UMP, Amira, FS7 a breeze. 

[newfoundmass]

Still strongly think the Panasonic route is the best option, as your b and c cameras could easy be used as an A cam and do almost everything that your A cam can do. Having that versatility cannot be underestimated. And the crop during HFR can be worked through, I think you'd eventually stop noticing it and just be used to it. 

Auto focus on the gimbal really isn't an issue. I've never had problems with my GH5 and the Moza Air, both using Rokinon lenses w/o auto focus and Panny lenses with auto focus. I think AF is a weak reason to pass on 10 bit and 4k 60p on your b and c cams, but I'm not the one using the cameras

If I did go the Sony route I'd probably avoid getting the a6500 because the HD is pretty awful and get two A7 III. 

 

[webrunner5]

1 hour ago, AaronChicago said:

@Oliver Daniel have you used an EasyRig? It makes holding cameras like the UMP, Amira, FS7 a breeze. 

 

[IronFilm]

11 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

Ursa Mini Pro - used it today on a multi cam shoot. Incredible image but for handheld work, it’s like holding a tank. Mini it’s not. Awesome for studio work on sticks. 

Fingers crossed for an URSA Micro Pro!

 

6 hours ago, AaronChicago said:

@Oliver Daniel have you used an EasyRig? It makes holding cameras like the UMP, Amira, FS7 a breeze. 

I'm constantly tempted to buy one of those cheap Chinese versions

[AaronChicago]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'm constantly tempted to buy one of those cheap Chinese versions

I've used the Proaim one and it's nice. Not sure about longevity but the 2 days that I used it were trouble free.

[Oliver Daniel]

9 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Still strongly think the Panasonic route is the best option, as your b and c cameras could easy be used as an A cam and do almost everything that your A cam can do. Having that versatility cannot be underestimated. And the crop during HFR can be worked through, I think you'd eventually stop noticing it and just be used to it. 

Auto focus on the gimbal really isn't an issue. I've never had problems with my GH5 and the Moza Air, both using Rokinon lenses w/o auto focus and Panny lenses with auto focus. I think AF is a weak reason to pass on 10 bit and 4k 60p on your b and c cams, but I'm not the one using the cameras

If I did go the Sony route I'd probably avoid getting the a6500 because the HD is pretty awful and get two A7 III. 

 

You’ll smile when you read this. 

After a brain spasm of a meeting today - the choice has been made and has gone ahead. 

It’s the EVA1, GH5S and GH5. The Atomos Sumo will join the EVA1. (@Sage will love this). 

We also need to update our gimbal. At the moment it’s a toss up between the Ronin-S and Tilta G2X? Tough. 

After all is said and done, I’m going to cry for week as I’ll be living on instant noodles and cheap biscuits for a while! ?

[newfoundmass]

5 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

You’ll smile when you read this. 

After a brain spasm of a meeting today - the choice has been made and has gone ahead. 

It’s the EVA1, GH5S and GH5. The Atomos Sumo will join the EVA1. (@Sage will love this). 

We also need to update our gimbal. At the moment it’s a toss up between the Ronin-S and Tilta G2X? Tough. 

After all is said and done, I’m going to cry for week as I’ll be living on instant noodles and cheap biscuits for a while! ?

All your bases will be covered!

[webrunner5]

15 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

It’s the EVA1, GH5S and GH5. The Atomos Sumo will join the EVA1. (@Sage will love this). 

 

Adorama has Just what you need!

https://www.adorama.com/us 984944.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwquTbBRCSARIsADzW88x8moPvbyMVzf24sNp9-up2x_X4DFGA2XA2LPQy2O9dbw-LrlrJAYIaAixQEALw_wcB

[Oliver Daniel]

3 hours ago, webrunner5 said:

Adorama has Just what you need!

https://www.adorama.com/us 984944.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjwquTbBRCSARIsADzW88x8moPvbyMVzf24sNp9-up2x_X4DFGA2XA2LPQy2O9dbw-LrlrJAYIaAixQEALw_wcB

Thanks. 

I’ll get something like this from a UK store.?

[PannySVHS]

20 hours ago, Oliver Daniel said:

You’ll smile when you read this. 

After a brain spasm of a meeting today - the choice has been made and has gone ahead. 

It’s the EVA1, GH5S and GH5. The Atomos Sumo will join the EVA1. (@Sage will love this).

 

Noooot:) You don´t want that package of cameras nor gimbal boredom but to get one massive Panny camera for all that money instead, staying true to the roots but upping the GAS game. Varicam LT, one camera for all your money! Honestly, cannot wait to see your EVA footage! Congrats!